Posts by Journeyman

7

GB's latest prophecy is already wrong!!!

by nowwhat? in

at the annual meeting they said god will put it into the nations hearts to give their power to the united nations.

now that trump and the republicans have won, the united states will never give up their sovereignty to the u.n. !

trump has total disdain for the un, who and wef!

Journeyman

I agree with much of slim's earlier comment. It's certainly premature to claim the idea of a resurgence of the UN (or possibly a successor organisation) is dead just because Trump has been re-elected.

Four years is a short time in world history, and the UN is already nearly 80 years old (even older if you count a continuous line from the previous League of Nations as a model for world governments).

There are a few possible outcomes:

1) Little change. For all the fears of Trump opposers and expectations of Trump supporters, his time as President may not make much difference in the long term. Look back through history - even just since the year 2000 and think of things we thought would be massive world turning points - September 11, 2001, for example - and in fact, on the grand scheme of things, they have changed relatively little. That includes Trump's first term. The world didn't burn down, but nor was there happiness and unicorns for all. The UN is still there, its membership pretty much as it was before (with the same 5 UNSC members). It's still getting involved in world trouble spots but unable to stop wars, and still having its own members killed by fighting nations, armies and groups, with no real comeback or punishment for the offenders. (Not much use for a world-ruling organisation!)

2) Trump acts in a way that weakens the UN, maybe even directly undermining or removing it. Even if this happens, by the end of his term it may just lead to the formation of a new successor organisation - a UN 2.0 if you like. Maybe Trump himself will be responsible for starting it, as a replacement on new terms of reference to the old one.

3) Trump acts in a way - perhaps inadvertently - that strengthens the UN in the long term. It may even be that the way Trump carries out his international politics might strengthen the future of the UN.
a) Positive example: he succeeds in mediating in various conflicts - that would strengthen the UN in the long term, as the thing most likely to break up the UN (apart from direct action against it by the USA) is if the member states are so divided in warfare that they cannot sit round a table. If the world temperature for war is cooled down, then there is more room for the UN to work.
b) Negative example: he fails to resolve the various world conflicts, possibly making them worse - the world would eventually need an organisation like the UN even more after future bloodshed, to bring nations to the table in an attempt to bring "world peace", especially if the US administration is seen to fail badly at peace-brokering alone.

6

THE LONG ANTICIPATED INTERVIEW OF THE 2 NEW GB MEMBERS

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/dxyjupnklgi?si=2ux5wokg57xdpaob.

here we have the more indepth interview of the two new gb members jody jodele & jacob rumph and what jumps out to me is how borring they are, interestingly they don't go into detail when it dawned on them when they became anointed but they only go though their history and how they ended up in bethel.

as we already know jody jodele is the real estate expert that will help the gb capitalise on all this real estate money and jacob rumph sounds he spend alot of time as a missionary in south america, maybe he will provide a more insightful understanding of that continent to the gb since no indigenous jw will be part of the gb anytime soon.now what strikes to me as odd is the examples they both sited as the bible characters they want to relate more with, and no it is not jesus.. these modern-day governing body of jehovah's witnesses seems to be leaning heavily on old testament figures like moses and gideon as their role models instead of focusing on jesus, which speaks volumes about the kind of organization they’re leading.

Journeyman

So both are essentially "company men" - they've had no significant life outside the JW bubble, and Jelene went straight to Bethel at 19 and has been in and out of it since, so he's barely even had any life outside of the corporate environment of WTHQ. At least Rumph, as a missionary in different parts of the world, will have seen something of life outside.

It's no surprise then that they aspired to joining the GB as they have no other perspective, unlike many past GB members (and also past travelling overseers, branch workers and so on) some of whom were once even members of other churches.

Interesting point about the increasing emphasis on "Old Testament" judges and prophets in JW material lately, rather than focusing more on Jesus. It's true that we don't see much mention of the "OT" in the "NT", which does seem to indicate we shouldn't focus so much on the pre-Christian era.

7

What's Happening In Spain?

by Slidin Fast in

jw
friends

normally we have a formula.

disaster, cue wt volunteers to the rescue, self congratulatory breaking news on jw.borg.

parts of spain are washed out with huge loss of life.

Journeyman

It's finally dropped about a week late.

Yes, I've noticed that's about "normal" for the Org. Major world disaster breaks - even in an easily accessible part of the world with good communications - and it takes them about 1-2 weeks to report on it.

It's possible they wait until they're heard about the local Witnesses first before reporting (hence why they always list how many JWs were killed, KHs damaged, etc), but that hardly makes it breaking or up-to-date news. It would make more sense to make at least a brief report acknowledging the tragedy ASAP, then fill in the personal details with an update later.

It was a horrible event.

Yes, I didn't follow it too closely at first - just put it down to another horrible flash-flooding tragedy, which are becoming more common in Europe these days - but the anger on the international news of the people against their King, shouting and throwing mud at him and his wife, made me sit up and realise this was not "just" another tragedy, but it seems there was governmental and military incompetence around not getting support out in time to the victims.

7

What's Happening In Spain?

by Slidin Fast in

jw
friends

normally we have a formula.

disaster, cue wt volunteers to the rescue, self congratulatory breaking news on jw.borg.

parts of spain are washed out with huge loss of life.

Journeyman

The tragedy of the flooding in Spain started to unfold from about Sept 29 according to Wikipedia

Sorry, I meant: "The tragedy of the flooding in Spain started to unfold from about Oct 29..." - so about a week ago now.

7

What's Happening In Spain?

by Slidin Fast in

jw
friends

normally we have a formula.

disaster, cue wt volunteers to the rescue, self congratulatory breaking news on jw.borg.

parts of spain are washed out with huge loss of life.

Journeyman

This happens a lot with the JW website. For all that it is trumpeted by the Org as being "up-to-date" and the only place where the R&F should look for "reliable" news, etc, they are extremely slow to post anything really relevant in world events that might be affecting congregations.

We see it often with the annual hurricane season in the USA, but it's good to see someone asking about something that is not US-centric too, as major events outside the US tend not to get as much coverage. It took several days from hurricanes striking until there was any info on the JW website about victims, relief efforts, etc. Their article on Helene is dated October 3rd and the one on Milton is dated October 17th, but the first reports of Helene were on "worldly" news channels from Sept 24-29, and for Milton around Oct 5-10.

I can imagine that for all the talk the Org does about responding rapidly to world events, while local elders and congregations may act swiftly (people are naturally more likely to have their neighbours' contact details and start searching for them immediately, and collecting water, blankets, etc), I suspect the time it takes to get info from local areas to the national branch, and then across to the HQ in NY, and then for them to decide what to publish, makes it a long and bureaucratic process.

That doesn't mean local help hasn't already started (other Spanish Witnesses travelling to help out, for example) but the Org itself is very slow to update the R&F in the rest of the world, despite their supposed care for the "worldwide association of brothers".

Given that they believe these are "critical times" and they expect world events to get worse, you'd think they'd have a team of brothers back in WTHQ on standby to report on these things, kind of like a JW version of a newsdesk at BBC, CNN, etc, and maybe local 'correspondents' in key countries - after all, they boast about their own website, ~~televangelist~~ broadcasting channel and how they raise money to support congregations worldwide. Even if they do have such a thing, it moves too slowly - or maybe it's heavily centralised and vetted in what it can report, like old-school Soviet media, and has to wait for approval from GB censors for what it can say and how?

The tragedy of the flooding in Spain started to unfold from about Sept 29 according to Wikipedia, so let's see how long it is before anything appears on the JW website. If their previous track record is anything to go by, it could be another few days to a week.

31

End within 2 years (again)

by road to nowhere in

an old elder friend from out of town stopped to see my ailing wife.

more than the locals do.

he said elder school emphasized 2 years and the existing body will be the leaders through persecution and tribulation.

Journeyman

It's quite odd, given how 'unified' the Org's teaching supposedly is - the same stuff studied across the world, for example - that so many individual elders, pioneers and other supposedly devoted PIMIs have their own 'rogue' speculations about when the end will come, how various signs will unfold, what Paradise will be like, how the resurrection will take place, and so on. Often, these individuals stand up in meetings and start to sew the seeds of their own speculation among others too.

Now ok, the outlines for these meetings are from WTHQ, so no doubt some of this is prompted by the Org itself, intended to keep the R&F hanging on, but a lot of the time the elders taking the lead seem to get carried away and go "off message".

For example, I've noticed increased encouragement lately from speakers to get the R&F speculating about what specific details of Paradise will be like. What kind of home will you build? Will you have a balcony overlooking a lake? Or a chateau in the mountains? What fruit and crops will you grow? What skills or talents will you work on first? It's supposed to be to "help" the R&F to have Paradise firm in their minds, but to me it seems more like creating self-centred desires and unrealistic - or at least premature - expectations.

Surely speculation to that kind of detail is "running ahead of" Jehovah and Jesus, since they will decide who goes where and does what, not us? Isn't that the same kind of "independent" and "selfish" thinking that Satan encouraged of Adam and Eve? Shouldn't we be "waiting on Jehovah" for him to determine how things should be done once Armageddon is over, not already have our own blueprints for our personal house, vineyard and so on?!

All it shows - along with these other "pet" ideas of various elders - that most in the Org are not really thinking spiritually, but for their own material gain or to promote their own theories of how and when "the end" will come.

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Into November now, and the slow but inexorable drop to 300 and below continues... 😂

19

Why didn't Watchtower go online with covid?

by Hellothere in

i wasn't surprised they didn't go online, i was shocked.

the perfect opportunity handed in a silver plate.

more time goes, more proof coming they took wrong decision going back to hall's.

Journeyman

Maybe sometimes we should actually believe what people say. The Org has never implied or stated they wanted to permanently stop in-person meeting or activity and go fully online - quite the reverse.

They always intended meetings should resume, and from the very beginning have been keen to get congregations back in person. They also still promote House-to-House as the main form of ministry (even if most of the R&F disagree and would rather not do it).

I don't believe they have ever intended to go fully online or fully virtual. Yes, you can make up all sorts of ulterior motive reasons for that (people less likely to contribute or remain PIMI if they are not physically involved, etc), but the simple fact is, humans are social beings. We PREFER being together in person.

Look at how even clubs, society or groups that begin online often start to form "meetups" in person. We just WANT to be physically together with people we share opinions and beliefs with.

So I don't think it's at all surprising that the Org has avoided going fully online, and that there appears to be no intention for them to do so.

However, the challenge they have is balancing remote/online vs in-person attendance in the longer term. Since they gave the congregations the option of meeting online (which they had to, due to COVID), they've been wrestling with the consequence that for many, it's an easier option than meeting in person if they're not in the mood. Heck, even a lot of Witnesses who are generally PIMI would rather follow a meeting on Zoom from time-to-time if they're tired from work, or the kids are playing up, or whatever.

Now that that cat is out of the bag, I don't see how the Org can put it back. The simplest thing to do is just leave things as they are, and let the ones who would rather use Zoom do so. I guess you can periodically give them a shepherding call to "encourage" them to come back in person, but beyond that, let them be.

Also, the fact they want to turn over their properties for profits and treat the R&F like pawns, shuffling them from place-to-place, yet they still expect them to show up en masse in person, is also a serious mistake on their part. Sure, people generally want to meet in person as long as they are happy - but when you piss them off, they will NOT want to be there. And that's what the Org is doing now, big time: merging and moving congregations, constantly changing teachings, inconsistent rulings and 'discipline' - and of course the gradual revealing of their attempts to cover up legal cases in various countries - all these things are turning increasing numbers of the R&F off and accelerating the falling numbers.

47

Leaked Annual Meeting Video: "Expect Sudden Changes" Jeffrey Jackson

by raymond frantz in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/uxqqyrrffow?si=wo0jotyvjg76oljk.

well that's sort of related to the next talk on our program brother jeffrey jackson will discuss the theme don't be surprised by sudden changes, brother jeff you have our.

attention well i'm sure we all agree with this fact in recent years there have been a lot of changes even since the last annual meeting there have been many changes some of them perhaps are a little surprising or may seem to be sudden but you know brothers and sisters when we look back on how these changes have come we can see that jehovah has gradually prepared us for each of these adjustments and changes let's review some of the recent changes we've had what changes have we seen with regard to our understand understanding of bible teachings at the 2021 annual meeting we received an adjusted understanding of john 529 it was explained that the resurrection of judgment will not be a judgment of condemnation rather it will be more like a period of probation the unrighteous mentioned at acts 24:15 will have an opportunity to gain everlasting life but their names will not be written wr in the book of life at the time of their resurrection to have their names eventually written in that book these ones will need to respond positively to the great educational work that will take place during the thousand-year reign then at the annual meeting in 2023 we gained enhanced insight into what we do know and what we don't know concerning jehovah's judgments we learned that the door of opportunity for people to take a stand for the kingdom does not shut when the great tribulation starts with the destruction of false religion at that time perhaps some will be like the egyptians in moses day who took a last minute stand and joined the exodus of god's people at the same annual meeting we adjusted our views with regard to jehovah's judgments of those who died in the flood and those who were destroyed in sodom and gomorrah also at that annual meeting an adjustment was made regarding the reporting of our time and activity in our preaching work instead of focusing on reports we try to make good use of every opportunity to witness then we receive the 2024 governing body update number two in that update we saw the need to adjust how we interact with those who have committed serious sins and have been removed from the congregation what other major adjustments have we recently seen in our preaching work the emphasis now is on studing bible studies and making disciples not on distributing literature to that end the focus is on studying meaningful conversations not just on using memorized presentations were you surprised by these adjustments perhaps so but as we look back we see how one adjustment in understanding gradually helped us with the next adjustment isn't it true that gradually jehovah has prepared us and when we look back on it we see how logical this training has been to refine our understanding but events in the world likewise have changed it's true sometimes in the world you have sudden changes for example the pandemic but often times change in the world is gradual isn't it true with regard to the view of morality homosexuality abortion even what's acceptable and not acceptable with regard to conduct all of that has happened gradually in the world and it's not until you look back and see how different the world is today with regard to those matters that we see that there have been a lot of changes but this can be dangerous because as things gradually change we may get used to gradual change and forget that there are some sudden changes about to occur uh let's take our bibles please and if you turn with me to the book of luke chap 21 now this is an example of sudden change in luke chap 21 uh notice there in verse 34 the words of our lord jesus are recorded and he said in verse 34 but pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with oving and heavy drinking and anxieties of life and suddenly suddenly that they be instantly instantly upon you it's interesting to note that jesus had already said that this day he was referring to would occur at a time that we don't think is likely so what lesson do we learn from what jesus said it's a warning isn't it that we can't just sit back and think well things are gradually going to develop we know which way it's going and maybe it's not going to happen yet you know got a little bit more wiggle room there with regard to the schedule but you see that's dangerous thinking now what we're going to do is consider two examples of areas where perhaps we could be a little guilty with regard to that for example our view as with regard to the number of anointed ones remaining on the earth now for many years what did we think we thought well that number would go down and down and down and down now i don't know about you but me i you when that report came out just how many how many partakers and and what were we thinking we probably you maybe we didn't say it but we were thinking you know the number will go down down down down and there'll be just a couple of old guys in a wheelchair who will get their reward well i'm exaggerating but that was sort of the feeling wasn't it but now what have we seen in recent years those numbers have gone up and up and not only that younger brothers have been appointed on the governing body now i know what you're all thinking two new ones how old are they we know you're not googling now but you will be but you see we need to be careful about what we're thinking with regard to the number of anointed ones left on earth you see 19 years ago i was appointed on the governing body even i thought i was too young now they tell me i'm not so young anymore but do we see the point what does the bible actually tell us with regard to this well it doesn't say the number would just dwindle down to just having a few uh older ones left no the great crowd of other sheep will be judged on the basis of how they deal with

Journeyman

It seems that little to no real research is going on with GJ and his buddies, beyond looking at how "Christendom's" Bible translators rendered the Hebrew and Greek texts and adopting many of their translations. At least Freddie, oddball that he was, did some sort of research.

I agree. It seems there isn't enough imagination or forethought among the current GB to realise that if you start chipping away at the pillars of support for those earlier doctrines, the whole edifice is weakened and will eventually collapse. Then again, maybe they do realise, but just don't care anymore. There seems to be much less concern about what went before - even all the talk about "our spiritual heritage" that was common up until just a few years ago seems to have lessened. (Although they're only too glad to try to milk the org's history for these bizarre museums they keep setting up).

These days it seems the current GB are too taken by implementing their own ideas, celebrating themselves and promoting their self-appointed status as God's sole channel on their ~~televangelism~~ broadcasting channel and in video, to think too deeply about how their actions are undermining their supposed power base. But then, that's usually the fate of those who are too focused on themselves. As a certain saying goes: "Pride comes before a fall (or crash, according to the NWT)"!

35

Serious sinner?

by Gorb in

jw
friends

with the statement in the study watchtower this sunday, that stop serving jehovah is a serious sin, the following:.

- can i conclude now, that we, (i, wife and 2 children), since 2008 pomo and no longer active in any religious activity, are serious sinners for jehovahs witnesses?.

writing this in a watchtower, a statement like that, could have big implications.. it makes me so sad.

Journeyman

Journeyman:
resistance against God and the holy spirit is what is the serious sin.

This right here is the problem with religious posters on a forum for recovering JW's. Piling on the guilt and fear that leaving God or the cult is a terrible thing to do.

Shameful.

That was just a statement of what is Christian doctrine, which is supposed to be what the JW org is founded on. One can choose to believe it or not, but my point was about those who supposedly do (the GB) and how they use that as a starting point to take it further for their own ends.

How you choose to react to comments about Christian beliefs (or any others) is your business. I read lots of comments or views (religious or otherwise) expressed on here that I consider wrong or offensive, but it's not for me to try to control what is said or call other posters "shameful".

Besides, this is not solely "a forum for recovering JW's". The intro to this forum says it's for "those interested in ... beliefs or the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society" and "offering support for both current and former Jehovah's Witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Jehovah's Witness religion..."

Getting back on track, I agree with blondie's post, and Listener's, which is the essence of what I was saying. The GB take broadly accepted (by Christians) doctrine and insert themselves into it, and that's becoming more noticeable in recent years as they keep talking more and more about obedience to "God's earthly organisation".