Posts by undercover

4

Passover vs Last Supper

by undercover in

after reading of shotgun's experience with the elders and the argument about the events of the night of the last supper, i did some research about the events surrounding jesus' last couple of days.. in true wts fashion, the gb has taken an event, despite all the controversy surrounding it, and has decreed in blanket statements, "facts" of jesus last meal and exactly what happened, all without any question that it didn't happen any other way.

to read a watchtower, it's quite simple what happened.

jesus told the disciples to prepare for passover, they ate passover, jesus exposed judas, judas left and jesus instituted the memorial.

undercover

After reading of Shotgun's experience with the elders and the argument about the events of the night of the last supper, I did some research about the events surrounding Jesus' last couple of days.

In true WTS fashion, the GB has taken an event, despite all the controversy surrounding it, and has decreed in blanket statements, "facts" of Jesus last meal and exactly what happened, all without any question that it didn't happen any other way. To read a Watchtower, it's quite simple what happened. Jesus told the disciples to prepare for Passover, they ate Passover, Jesus exposed Judas, Judas left and Jesus instituted the Memorial. When you read the Bible, it's not that clear. In fact there are inconsistencies and outright contradictions. When you research different resources, including the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Jewish Encyclopedia, etc. controversies and differences in opinions and beliefs surface about how the Passover was celebrated and how the Festival of Unleavened Bread was viewed. Controversies abound about whether Judas was present at the instituting of the Memorial. Controversies exist on whether Jesus died on Nisan 14th or Nisan 15th. There are some who think that Jesus died on a Thursday instead of a Friday. All of these theoriests use the Bible and Jewish history to support their claim.

The WTS says it happens a certain way and all the little JWsheep fall in line and accept it. I was one of them. I never questioned it. It happened the way they said. I didn't know about the idea that the Jews of that time celebrated the Passover or Pashal on two different nights depending on what region they were from. I didn't know how the Fesitval of Unleavened Bread worked. I never paid any attention that John said Judas left immediately after the morsel was handed to him by Jesus, thus the WTS says he wasn't present at the new memorial when Luke says that AFTER the instituting of the memorial Jesus said his betrayer was at the table with him.

The events of Jesus' death and last few days is much more complicated than I had ever imagined. After research, I actually have more questions than before. But what is apparent is that the WTS doesn't know anymore than anyone else. They picked a scenerio that works with their beliefs and since they have "God's Spirit" it had to have happened that way. I, by not accepting their position as God's spokesmen, question their scenerio, especially when it cannot be verified strictly by the scriptures.

JWs cannot question these inconsistencies. They have to go to the memorial and accept the sequence of events just as it is handed to them, despite that there are no known facts surrounding the events they are celebrating.

20

Are JWs Are A "Free" People As They Claim???

by minimus in

jw
friends

the argument witnesses make is that they are not encumbered by the world and its so-called "freedom".

they feel they are "free" from all the typical problems of this "worldly system of things"........if you could reason with a witness as to whether or not they are truly "free'', what would you say to help them see the light?

undercover

Life is just like sailing, right?

For JWs, it's more like tacking.

20

Are JWs Are A "Free" People As They Claim???

by minimus in

jw
friends

the argument witnesses make is that they are not encumbered by the world and its so-called "freedom".

they feel they are "free" from all the typical problems of this "worldly system of things"........if you could reason with a witness as to whether or not they are truly "free'', what would you say to help them see the light?

undercover

Drnewson, are you free to visit and post on an "apostate" web-site and remain in good standing in your congregation?

20

Are JWs Are A "Free" People As They Claim???

by minimus in

jw
friends

the argument witnesses make is that they are not encumbered by the world and its so-called "freedom".

they feel they are "free" from all the typical problems of this "worldly system of things"........if you could reason with a witness as to whether or not they are truly "free'', what would you say to help them see the light?

undercover

JWs think they are "free" in that they are no part of Satan's world. They don't have to worry about politics, crime, hunger, etc because God is going to take care of it anytime now. This is not freedom as they think, it's delusion. They have been deluded into thinking that they are "free". But this delusion of "freedom" is actually enslavement to the organiztion that has them deluded. They think, act, react, the way they are trained to by their captors. They cannot have an opinion on world affairs. They cannot decide for themselves what is appropriate or inappropriate for entertainment. They have to share in the prescribed work from their governers, they have to attend their indoctrinational meetings.

As long as one allows the organization to maintain this hold on them, one will probably be unable to reason with them. Once one realizes something is wrong or lets doubts creep in, they can then be reasoned with in certain things.

40

JW suicide vs Non-JW suicide

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

this is a bit of a spinoff of these two threads:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/61698/1.ashx.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/69308/1.ashx.

undercover

JWs = 4

non-JWs = 0

52

Why is there a High Rate of Suicide among Jehovahs Witnesses?????

by Aikon in

jw
friends

hi guys.

last week i was involed in a very distressing situation, going with a family to identify their mother who had commited suicide.. we are waiting for the coroner to release the body for the funneral.. but, so far this year a number of jw have commited suicide in england,why???.

can any one throw a light why so many jw of good standing commit suicide,.

undercover

what evidence is there that the rate of suicide among JW's is any higher than the population in general?

In my lifetime of being a JW, I have personally known 3 JWs who committed suicide and know of one other one(I didn't know them personnally but knew who they were)that also did so. In that same amount of time, no one in my "worldly" family nor any non-JWs at my various places of employment or schooling that have I known personally, or heard of, committed suicide.

While that isn't proof of the suicide rate of JWs being higher it shows to me that JWs are no better insulated from mental problems or the pressures of life anymore than non-JWs. In fact, the pressure is greater on JWs, not because of everyday things all people deal with but because of the added pressures of trying to live up to some ideal that is unattainable.

9

The Paradigm Shift that Will Break the Watchtower

by metatron in

jw
friends

so, where is the world headed?.

http://www.dailynews.com/stories/0,1413,200~20954~2046024,00.html.

cloning is becoming an ordinary fact.

undercover

In the past the WT has said, among other things:

Man will never be able to leave Earth's orbit.

Aluminum is a serious health threat and should not be used.

The heart literally controls our emotions and controls how we feel or act.

the End Times can be figured by measuring a pyramid.

People still think the WTS is scientifically accurate in its reporting. Even as things change in the near future, the WTS will cover their tracks, gain "new light" and keep fooling the masses of their followers.

True, more and more are realizing how they were duped and it's good to see the dark ages of 1800/1900s religion is ending, but there will always be people who need some kind of belief system and the WTS will fill the bill nicely for them.

14

Most commun cars in your congregation

by JH in

jw
friends

in your former congregation, what models of cars were the most commun?.

in my congregation, there was a time in the late 80's, that just about everybody had a dodge aries.

it seemed to be an inexpensive decent size car for the service, then a few years later, many had volkswagen jettas, a little more expensive.... i was the type to get a red, 2 door car.

undercover

I hated mini-vans but they were great for service. Load em up with 6-8 people and go do RVs. Might get out of the car twice on a good morning(and one of them was for break).

As a kid, four door cars were the preferred mode of transportation. From Ford Galaxies and Chevy Impalas to the Vista-Cruiser station wagon(remember those?). I remember actual meeting parts about the importance of buying 4 door over 2 door. Brothers who bought two door cars were looked on as spiritually weak. But by the 80s a lot had changed. The loyal ones had run out and bought Dodge Caravans, first of the mini-vans. KH parking lots looked like the local Dodge/Chrysler car lot. In the late 70s/early 80s a lot of the brothers pish-poshed the whole service car idea. Vettes, Zs(both 28 and Nissan), Porsches, even a Ferrari or two were not uncommon to see amongst the brothers that had money. Motorcycles were frowned on, but the brothers had em anyway. I remember an elder that had a big ole bike. He rode it to a picnic once.

63

PLEASE HELP! Assist in 1914 Rebuttal...

by Jared in

ok, so i'm trying to just plant a tiny seed of doubt somewhere in the cracks of my mothers mind, but that woman has 'jehovah' tattooed on her chest!

anyway, i would not only like help for her benefit but also for my benefit.

so it all started when i questioned her about 1914.... i wrote to her: 'as you had suggested i wanted to do some research.

undercover

Here is why 1914 is wrong even if (I say IF) 607 is right:

The WTS uses the "day for a year" rule to come up with the 2520 years from 607 to 1914 (Remembering there is no zero year, an embarrasing oops for the WTS in the early days, that's why they used to say 606). But they don't use 365 day years, they use 360 day years. So the "seven times" equals seven years of 360 days or 2520. 2520 at a day for a year takes you from 607 to 1914, or does it? It's already been established that a "time" or year is 360 days. 2,520 years of 365 days from 607 equals 1914 but 2,520 years of 360 days equals 12,600 days less or 35 years less, making the conclusion of the formula some time in the late 1870s.

So even if you accept 607 as the correct date of the fall of Jerusalem, the formula used to figure the gentile times ending is flawed. You can argue all day long about 586 or 607, it doesn't matter. The math doesn't add up to 1914.

15

If preaching is so important, why not use the Internet and email? Why Hide?

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

dear forum:.

just a question i've had for years now.

i opened up the newest watchtower that my mother gave me (the one with the memorial observance on the front) and in one of the articles it mentions an internet site as a reference!!!

undercover

Now the money... it is a well known fact that if the WTS does not receive contributions equal too or greater than the value of the literature that is picked up, they will send the congregation a letter stating that they will not receive any more literature until the "books are settled". They claim to have everything on a donation basis.... what they don't say is that they won't give you anything if you don't give THEM anything. Bottom line: It?s a business and they are out to make money.

Wow. I didn't know that. They'll actually cut off shipping publications to a congregation if they "owe" money for "outstanding" debt? And this is supposed to be a donation only arrangement.

It's not so much a business as it is a shake down racket. Hmmm. the WTS is headquartered in New York. I wonder if they learned their business ethics from that other famous New York organization, the Mafia?