Posts by winsome

107

C.O. Reports: JWs/WTS "Reach Critical Mass...

by BitterTruth in

jw
friends

jehovah's witnesses/wts have reached "critical mass" - says ex-circuit overseer.

------posting copied from h2o-----.

posted by xelder [seeker4] on july 13, 2000 at 12:00:52 {rn3hpwrs1eubi2tgjvegd9bhhxgwag}:.

winsome

BT said:

In view of the recent "changes" in policies, officially, ask the G.B. to Resign or else...the threat is made they do this or the 1/3 take the message DIRECT TO THE FRIENDS and let them decide...the damage caused by this, could be incalculable...there may not exist an organization, after that more drastic move...this could be the "more effective" move.
The threat of hundreds and hundreds of highly respected brothers, leaders with the organization, going directly to the brothers and "telling it like it is..." Taking into consideration, the statue of these brothers, and the high "esteem" they are held by general rank and file brothers, this could be a devastating blow to the organization...will no doubt ATTRACT MEDIA ATTENTION, and probably bring about the overall "demise" of the organization itself...a serious break in the brotherhood on a worldwide scale, is totally unprecendented, totally unexplainable...for God's People to be engaged in total "civil war." A Break of this magnitude would be considered "sensation" to all concerned and wreak any who was thinking about starting a Bible Study with JWs...it would take many, many years for the organization to recover from this...many years.
This is a powerful threat...a sobering thought...
It would be interesting to see, how the G.B. would react to such a "threat."

I agree! If appropriately timed, this would be the proper move for the disenchanted "liberal" heavies in high station who have banded together against the Governing Body.

winsome

30

2 Cor 4:4: Jehovah=Satan?

by Sirona in

i just can't see the answer to this question.

it may be obvious, so please forgive me if you think i'm silly for asking.. 2 corinthians 4 verse 4 in the nwt:.

"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the christ, who is the image of god, might not shine through".

winsome

Hi Sirona:

The "god of this system of things" in 2 Corinthians 4:4, would be as you have deduced, Jehovah God. Here's why.

When we check the context, we see mentioned a "veil" that prevents understanding of God's Word. This "veil" is placed there by Almighty God. It is part of the "judgment" and punishment God places upon His Own People, Israel, for acts of disobedience and for being "unbelievers" of Sacred His Word from His viewpoint.

How do we know? Well, I think the use of the word "veil" is a key thought in determining which "God" is taking action against the "unbelievers" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So, when we take note of that fact, the answer becomes clear and easy to discern. Here are the key verses to consider. You will notice, the verses mention a "veil" that prevents understanding of scripture for the Jewish nation, Israel. Its sole purpose is to prevent Israel from "understanding" God's Word.

"Therefore, as we have such a hope, we are using great freeness of speech, and not doing as when Moses would put a veil upon his face, that the sons of Israel might not gaze intently at the end of that which was to be done away with. But their [Israel's] mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant [for Israel], because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away...If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing [Jews], among whom the God [Jehovah] of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers [Jews], that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." -- 2 Corinthians 3:12-16; 4:3,4

Paul is talking about the nation of Israel and how their "reading of the old covenant" is veiled. He says, "their mental powers were dulled." This has occurred to the nation of Israel as a special punishment from God Almighty. The "mental powers being dulled" is actually the same identical thing that occurs to the "MINDS of the unbelievers" in 2 Cor. 4:4 where it says, "blinds the minds of the unbelievers". Their "minds" are blinded. Or, their "mental powers are dulled." It is the same situation. Therefore, the "good news" that Paul is referring to in 2 Cor. 4:4 was in fact "veiled" to the Jewish nation, Israel. Why? No doubt because they did not want to accept Christ. The nation and its religious leaders, did not want to include "Christ" Jesus, as part of the big picture of God's overall purposes. But Paul was showing above, the nation of Israel could never ever understand God's purposes for them, without first accepting Christ's role for them as "savior" of the nation. Without that understanding, the "good news" would continue to be "veiled" or not understood for all eternity for this "blinded" people.

This is why John also showed how "blindness" would be the punishment God would enact upon Israel too for disobedience and faithlessness. He said,

"But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? The reason why they [Jews] were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said:He [God] has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I shall heal them." -- John 12:37-40

An interesting point about this blindness. In the following verses, Paul referred to this "blindness" from God as being actually a SELF-INDUCED blindness, where Israel utterly refuses to "see" with their eyes. If this is the case, this would make the blindness in reality, a blatant refusal to "see" that which is obvious and apparent. Thus making the blindness an act of overt disobedience on their part. Paul stated of Israel:

"...The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, saying, "Go to this people and say: By hearing, you will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and THEY [ISRAEL] HAVE SHUT THEIR EYES; THAT THEY NEVER SEE WITH THEIR EYES and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back, and I should heal them. -- Acts 28:26, 27

Paul says above, "they [Israel] have shut their eyes". The people did this. That would make it WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE, which means the blindness is then, self-induced. In other words, they "closed their eyes" willingly. Because of doing this, Jehovah now chooses to "paste their eyes shut" on a permanent basis, as a punishment for this type of conduct. He completes an action they have already started -- self-induced blindness. This would explain the wording on the following verses.

"And he went on to say; Go, and you must say to this people, Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge. Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and PASTE THEIR VERY EYES TOGETHER, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves." -- Isaiah 6:9, 10

God takes this action AFTER they prove to be "willingly ignorant". He acts, ONLY after they have expressed their "will" in this matter. -- See 2 Peter 3:5 KJV

If 2 Corinthians 4:4, were referring to the world outside the christian congregation, this would be a needless act on Satan's part. Blindness is their natural "trademark". They need no help from Satan.

But if this were God's people, the nation of Israel, then this would make perfect sense, as it would be in keeping with His promises made to bring about the "malediction" upon His people and His Jewish "system of things" [order of things], if Israel should disobey and remain in "unbelief" toward His sacred messages. God point-blank said, for disobedience to His Law, God would strike His people with the "curse, confusion" and "BEWILDERMENT OF HEART". Mental blindness. -- Deut. 28:15, 20, 28

God said,

"And you [Israel] will indeed become one who GROPES ABOUT AT MIDDAY, just as a blind man gropes about in the gloom, and you will not make your ways successful..." Deut. 28:29

They would become a blind nation by way of God's punishment upon them.

So it would be most appropriate based upon what we know about Jehovah God and the Mosiac Law, for God Himself then to strike His Own People Israel, with "blindness", as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:4.

It would be as Paul said,

"...God has given them [Israel] a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day. Also, David says: "Let their table become for them a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution; let their eyes become darkened so as not to see, and always bow down their back...They also, if they [Israel] do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again...For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes; that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in." -- Romans 11:8-10, 23, 25

Clearly, the blinding action on God's part upon Israel is in keeping with His Character and Sworn Word. It should therefore come as no surprise to serious students of God's Word that Jehovah God should rightfully be the one we refer to as the "God of this system of things" that "blinds the minds of the unbelievers" of the nation of Israel. -- 2 Cor. 4:4

I agree with your conclusion.

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 13 August 2002 15:31:38

36

OFFICIAL: Bill Bowen Was DF'ed

by ErieGuy in

edited by - erieguy on 26 july 2002 8:1:4.

winsome

To: FreeToBeMe,

So Bill Bowen got df'd ..... personally, I don't see the big deal. Has this guy become something of a 'messiah' for the most recent disfellowshipees? What's the big deal with being df'd anyway? I, like most of the people in this forum negotiated their df'ing with grace, and without buying into the Org's. games. We bucked Org. procedure, and when elders demanded we meet with them for some kangeroo court, we said 'No'. We, each of us individually, removed the power of the Org. by not giving it power over us... and many of us prepared the way for people like Bill Bowen, who can thank their lucky stars that they have 'an issue' they can attached their anger too.
Bill Bowen now has the 'fellowship' of Silentlambs, and similar forums, and I am pleased for him, as I am for others similarly placed, but don't forget that whilst some of you continued attaching so much importance to Org. doctrine, procedure and philosophy, many of us suffered because of it, and suffered in silence. Fortunately, the 'silence' has now become a deafening roar, but only now have people like Bill Bowen finally heard us. We may be silenced again, we may continue to roar... the 'truth' is the Org. will never be quite the same. However, there will continue to be those who are deaf to the lamb's roar, as many have been up to now.
I wish Bill Bowen all the best in his efforts. The internet has proved to be a wonderful forum for bringing us all together. But, let's not forget those who have suffered in silence, who thought (and in their minds knew) they were alone, and have either managed, or not, to deal with their pain without the support now afforded those who have access to it. The strength Bill Bowen has is not his own, but is that which has been given him as a gift by those that have preceded him. Let's pray he doesn't misuse that strength in harping upon an issue of little consequence, his disfellowshipping. The silent lambs deserve better.
FreeToBeMe

Your post was a masterpiece, soooo masterfully, sooo eloquently stated!

So insightful, so true. That's why I just wanted to re-quote the post, in its entirety, leaving no words out.

Unfortunately though, I think your thoughts are so deep, they will go largely unnoticed by those most concerned about the Bill Bowens Saga. Really, we who are appalled by this great injustice, still can't see "beyond the nose on ourr faces", actually. So, I think your words above, will not be fully appreciated or discerned (if ever) for "many moons" because of our own unaffected simplicity and distasteful naivete'.

You see, most of us here and elsewhere who are acquainted with the "silentlambs" movement, just don't think as deeply about the issues as you obviously do. So, Bill Bowens all of a sudden does become a "messiah" of sorts. As if the WTS has never, ever murdered someone in cold blood before. They must be dreaming! Why I've personnally eye-witnessed "Bill Bowens" type people being disfellowshipped for the last 40 years! And heard of cases like his, even before, that have resulted in the same fate.

So the disfellowshipment of Bill Bowens of Kentucky is no surprise, by a long shot. But actually to be expected, if you know anything about the operations of the F&DS of Brooklyn, NY. Remember, "disfellowshipment is a loving arrangement", as brother Pevy said on the video tape for the WTS. And the WTS has practiced this special brand of "love" for many years now upon any who would oppose themselves on any subject, no questions asked.

But like you said, all of sudden, we are shocked! Why, we just can't believe the WTS would treat Bill Bowens that way. We are appalled. What a travesty of justice.

Pleeeease...give me a break!

You know, I would think people could put at least, a few facts together by now and come to know a stinking skunk or pole cat when we smell one, namely the wicked WTS. For example, if because of the policies of the WTS on child abuse gets exposed in the press internationally, and the WTS suddenly begins to smell more offensive than ever to the world in general, and if we suddenly sense we sort of smell a spiritual "pole cat" in our midst, namely the WTS itself, then we must reason: there must more things that really "stink" where that came from hidden in the past. If the WTS would be so "cold-blooded" as to disfellowship a guy like Bill Bowens for trying to help get the "pedophile-paradise" problem corrected, and is able to arrest the public's attention as well as JWs undivided attention worldwide to the problem, and then we just conclude, "well we've found one dead body buried in the WTS basement". And if that's all we learn from this, all we get out of this fiasco this, with all of the worldwide attention given to this problem in the press, then we need our heads examined. Because that's certainly not what the world thinks. And neither should we think this too.

If this is how we think, then regrettably, we have missed the whole point of Bill Bowen's execution, and brave exposing on his part, of the WTS' wrongdoing and mismanagement of people's lives, as the so-called "F&DS". We haven't learned anything at all from this situation. In stead, all of the hard work of Bill Bowens and the painful public execution of himself and others associated with his work, are in vain, since we've missed the major import of his cause and perspectus What his work has clearly accomplished, demonstrated for the entire world to see: Namely that the WTS is a "bunch of stinking crooks", spiritual pole cats that stink real, real bad, posing as the "F&DS". Instead, they are impostors, "wicked shepherds" opposed to all that is good. (Ezekiel 34:1-12)

If we haven't learned this, we've missed the whole point of this faithful man's execution and life course, everything he stood for, within the walls of the vicious flock-destroying operation called the WTS. To be sure, Bill Bowens lived and died for a worthy cause. But, just as you say, others before him have stood ever so nobly too. Bill Bowens, no, is not alone in his martyrdom, by no means. But do we understand this? Do we get it? I don't think most us who are complaining about how Bill Bowens has been treated really understand this yet.

Excuse me, but wouldn't it make common sense at least to suggest, there might more WTS "dead bodies" buried somewhere by this raving lunatic organization -- hidden away in it's basement? Wouldn't it make sense to think that there might be more "skeletons in the closet" of the WTS? Doesn't that make sense? Shouldn't we reason there must be more hidden attrocities committed in the past by these cold-blooded killers? You would think we could put that together.

If we could figure that out, then it would be more reasonable that there must be MORE "Bill Bowens" murdered, sacrificed at the WT altar of Public Relations and Public Image that CAME BEFORE HIM!!!

Individuals massacred over doctrinal dogma, policies, protocol, you name it.

If all we see is one "dead body", the silent lambs issue, which is undeniably bad enough, don't get me wrong. But as you suggest, if that is all we see, and not all of the brave people that must been massacred before Bill Bowens, then we missed the main point of this entire situation. We've missed the major opportunity to see, the greater, larger picture of this horrendous situation and/or obvious ramifications also implicated by such a scene. We have missed the real opportunity to excavate and unearth the vast "burial grounds of innocent ones", brutally murdered by the WTS.

Anyway, great post!

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 28 July 2002 11:34:53

Edited by - winsome on 28 July 2002 11:57:46

Edited by - winsome on 28 July 2002 12:20:34

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

winsome

YK,

The WT has served God's purpose in that they have performed sort of like John the Baptizer, in that they have introduced us to Jehovah God and his Messiah, Jesus Christ, with the urgent call to repent. They have acquainted us with the vital issues confronting us regarding God's sovereignty and his determination to rid the earth of wickedness, as well as alerting us to the numerous spiritual dangers that Satan's world presents to our faith.

In other words, they've accomplished some good over the years, just as many religions of our day can make the same claim. But, I'll agree they have accomplished some good in their existence.

The paradox is, though, that because we have a strong tendency to follow humans, that the Watchtower has apparently, inadvertently, overshot the mark, in that the Watchtower itself has become a religion and has replaced Jehovah God and Christ in the hearts and minds of many. So, I believe that the final test that will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses will be the decoupling of our faith from the Watchtower organization. That will be a traumatic affair for sure.

Many religions on earth have done this too. Its called Idolatry!

To better appreciate this phenomenon of Jehovah's judgments, which the Bible plainly says are high up out of reach for many, we might liken the Watchtower to the Mosaic system that Paul said served as a tutor leading the faithful to Christ. The stumbling block for many Jews, though, was that they couldn't separate themselves from their attachment to Judaism when Christ fianlly arrived and Jehovah abadoned the Jewish system. That, my friend, was the paradox, in that the very thing that served as their reliable guide could also be their undoing if they placed undue importance upon it. So, while the Watchtower has similarly served as a tutor, the Watchtower is not the end of our faith. At some point, obviously, the Watchtower will have served its purpose and will be discarded by Jehovah. But the very fact that many of Jehovah's Witnesses have a demonstrable, genuine, child-like faith in God and Christ is evidence that the Wt's tutorship has considerable value.

Absolutely wrong.

Anointed christians of the first century had the holy spirit as their "tutor", the same as the presumed anointed among JWs today are suppose to have. But as you show above so eloquently, in actuality JWs do not demonstrate any evidence at all of possessing or having this powerful force in their lives. They show in fact, the opposite. They show by their many foolish blunders that they clearly DO NOT have the true "leadings of the spirit" as a spiritual homing device, the spiritual "compass" within them. The current activities of JWs give clear evidence that they DO NOT have God's powerful "reproductive seed" implanted within them, to guide them safely and progressively in christian growth. The past 125-year history of the JW Organization unequivocally proves that. (Romans 8:14-16; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

(See detailed information posted by myself on this subject where the critical fallacy of your argument is revealed.) http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=25225&site=3

Therefore, what you propose above is impossible. Here's why.

In short, whenever the truly spirit "anointed" of God of the first century, would get off track of his christian course at any time, God's spirit, which "bears witness with their spirit", immediately acts as an "umbilical cord" tie-in with God and the individual, to let them know exactly how God feels about their questionable conduct. The special "tie-in" with God stays with the "anointed" till their death. (Romans 8:14-16; Ephesians 1:13, 14) This being the case then, there is no way possible for the truly "spirit-anointed" to get confused or innocently misled away from the path of righteousness, as you have suggested above. This is because God's "spirit" is placed within each genuinely "anointed" person as a "reproductive seed" that positively KEEPS HIM ON TRACK! As God's Word says, the spiritual "son" of God then, properly "cannot practice sin" at all. He does not "practice sin" because God's spirit "leads" him, continually. (1 John 3:9)

Therefore, with the spirit "leading them" as anointed "sons", it would be impossible for them to pursue a course of sin and wrongdoing (as we've seen practiced by the WTS and company) over a prolonged period time, and NOT COME TO KNOW IT. God's powerful Holy Spirit would unquestionably, LET THEM KNOW! God's active holy spirit and its powerful operation upon the "anointed" son would without a doubt, make such a disturbing course known to the Governing Body and all presumed "anointed" among JWs earthwide. God's spirit would let them know that this particular course they were pursuing, was completely displeasing to Himself and Jesus Christ, who is the head of the christian congregation. God's spirit would act, so that they must stop this conduct, before His anger rages against them as lawless ones. So, the truly "spirit-begotten" would have it made known to them by God Himself, individually and as a group, any conduct or action that was displeasing to God and Christ. (Case in point, the abusive treatment toward the "Silentlambs" movement and the strong hand methods of disfellowshiping to "stem the tide" and effectively silence the "whistle-blowers" who expose "the hidden" wicked pedophile situation among the JW organization earthwide. -- Luke 8:17) The "anointed" christian would know, by way of the "spirit", God's holy spirit, that God was thoroughly displeased. (Romans 8:14-16; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9)

The Bible shows when the truly "anointed" get off track, this spiritual "tie-in" of the holy spirit, immediately begins to be "grieved", and to such an extent, that they would know immediately something is wrong and "out of order" with God and that definite action must be taken to remedy the situation. If they did not heed the "witness of the spirit" in such critical cases, they would run the risk of "blaspheming" God's spirit by a prolonged "practice of sin WITH KNOWLEDGE". Complete disaster! He would lose his "heavenly hope" because he has not remained "pure" in God's eyes, just as "that One is pure". Therefore, the truly "anointed" must then always follow the "leadings of the spirit", as true sons of God till their death to gain Jehovah's and Jesus' approval. (Ephesian 4:30; Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-31)

"And you have an anointing from the holy one; all of you have knowledge...And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him." (1 John 2:20, 27)

"And everyone who has this hope set upon him purifies himself just as that one is pure...Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God." ( 1 John 3:3, 9)

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 24 July 2002 16:0:13

Edited by - winsome on 24 July 2002 17:2:10

25

Question for You Know

by larc in

jw
friends

on one of your posts you say the we operate with false assumptions.

it seems to me that one of your assumptions is false, to wit, the wt is god's organization.

again, somewhere you wrote that the jews were no longer god's people when jesus arrived.

winsome

Hi Ozziepost:

I think we've had this discussion before, but I'll just point you to the best authority, Jesus' words in the Bible, OK?"look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" - Matthew 28:20 (NWT)It doesn't come any plainer than that, does it?Cheers, Ozzie

Of course, you are absolutely right. But, behold! As you and many others can see, your astute observation went again, completely over the head of Mr. "AK" [All-Knowing]. Clearly Mr. AK is not a keen student of scripture. Did you notice when attempting to answer Larc's question above, he went off into the ridiculous "wheat/weed" routine, wts style, which by now has been rendered totally impotent by keen bible scholarship of Carl Olaf Jonnson and others, writings of former JWs that Mr. AK knows nothing about.

I'd like to make a comment or two on Matthew 28:20 mentioned above.

A careful review of Luke 19:11-27, the parable of the minas, shows exactly the same thing and reiterates your germaine point. Namely, a first century parousia of Jesus, culminating in 70 c.e.

For example, Luke 19:11 shows the purpose of the parable. To show the disciples that the Kingdom of God was NOT going to "display itself instantly". So Jesus gave this parable. Verses 12-15 shows Christ goes off to "secure kingly power" for himself. In the meantime, they were told "do business till I COME". (vs. 13) Later, "when he got back", or "returns," he makes his inspection of his disciples, the christian body of believers. He makes his inspection only "AFTER HAVING SECURED KINGLY POWER" for himself. Verse 27 explicitly shows the time-frame when the final inspection occurs. When he has all his "enemies who did not want him to become king" brought before him and "slaughtered". This is the Jewish nation in 70 c.e. A very important point. But validated by the contents of Matthew 24:2.

So, when the foretold "slaughter" occurs, yes, Jesus is king at this time. He is a reigning "king" when this "slaughter" occurs. He has been crowned "king" in the heavens by his heavenly father in the first century. And as "king", is allowed to "sit upon Jehovah's throne," again, in the first century. Which means, he is "enthroned" in the first century.

Psalms 55:19, in the NWT clearly shows it is impossible to sit upon a throne, and NOT BE ENTHRONED. But the WTS nor JWs cannot seem to understand this point. They act as though it is beyond them. Because if they admitted this, they would have to "trash" their entire religion. The date of 1914 becomes meaningless. A false doctrine, a "commandment of men" taught for 125 years. (Mark 7:7-9) But the point need not be beyond us. Jesus was "enthroned" in the first century as "king". And he "returned" in 70 c.e. to bring "vengeance" and "wrath" upon the city of Jerusalem. (Luke 21:23, 24)

Therefore based upon that understanding, Jesus could truthfully say: "I WILL BE WITH YOU for all the days until the conclusion of the system of things". That is the "conclusion" of the Jewish "system of things". (Matthew 28:20) He could say this, since he personally MONITORED the christian congregations of the first century right up to 70 c.e. and the destruction of the temple. (See Revelation chapters 2-3 and the "7 congregations").

Therefore, its appropriate to say Jesus was "enthroned" in the first century because as we know, Jesus was allowed to "sit upon Jehovah's throne" in the first century. (Rev. 3:21) And, it would be impossible for someone to sit upon a throne, without himself being "enthroned" as king. We know this became possible only because Jesus was "declared a Son" of God, in the permanent sense, at his resurrection from the dead. And when Jesus would be "declared a Son", God's Word shows he would at the same time, be "installed as king". (See Romans 1:4; Psalms 2:6,7)

And all of this happened in the first century, when he went back to heaven "to secure kingly power" for himself, just as the parable shows. (Luke 19:12) Afterwhich, Jesus could make his "return", just as he promised the disciple on the mount of olives. He would return, or come again, or have his second "parousia", when as he promised, at the very time "when by no means a stone [of this temple] would not be left upon a stone and not thrown down." There can be no doubt, this was a direct reference to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which as we know, occurred later in 70 c.e. However, we note, this startling, sensational statement by Jesus was followed with the question: "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia [coming; return] and the conclusion of the system of things". The disciples would understand this as the conclusion of the Jewish system of things. When the temple would be destroyed. Sensational news to them. (Matthew 24:2,3)

So, we would be be wise to then, to the obvious, and connect the return, second parousia, or coming of Jesus with the destruction of the temple, when as Jesus said, "a stone would not be left upon a stone" -- the destruction of the temple in 70 c.e. This is the only way the first century disciples of Jesus could possibly understand the situation.

And of course, this conclusion makes perfect sense as it matches the foretold events of Luke 19:11-27 too. Namely, Jesus would, in 70 c.e., settle all accounts with his disciples and at the same time, bring vengeance upon a people "who did not want him to become king" by destroying their "temple" and entire religious "system of things". (Matthew 24:3; Luke 19:14, 27)

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 21 July 2002 12:2:30

Edited by - winsome on 21 July 2002 12:4:48

75

1000 asked to leave Brooklyn Bethel!

by cyberguy in

jw
friends

1000 were asked to leave brooklyn bethel (actually, this includes the farm and patterson) "voluntarily!

" only 6 replied to the request in the last 3 weeks.

it looks like the "waters" of bethel are drying up, or rather, their revenues are drying up!

winsome

Hi Room 215,

I'd say the problem stems from investing our contributions on wall street (which is risky business these days) instead of where it was supposed to go in the first place, namely the "worldwide preaching work" is clearly a hidden factor. This mismanagement of funds has been hushed up. The brothers would be enraged if they knew. Also other expensive projects like building the "Patterson estate" since 1989 (a $200 million dollar facility and counting) has finally taken its toll. Lack of money.

The JWs are under the impression, when the money is gone the preaching work is over. So the G.B. can't tell.

But liquid assets are slim and cash flow low. This cramps the style of the G.B. who used to be able to spend frivolously. Those days are no more. Case in point, recent books released in paperback form rather than hardback, like both Isaiah books and new Daniel book. Also trying to get the brothers to contribute ridiculous commercial rates for literature like: deluxe gold trim bibles (over $20), WT videos (over $20), reference books like "Insight on Scriptures" ($40 and up) and so-called religious encyclopedia on cd-rom ($50-100) and so on. (See November 1996 Kingdom Ministry page 3.)

All these things and more, show a serious lack of funds at Bethel. But the G.B. can't admit they are short, for obvious reasons. The end is not here. So we should not have money problems or shortages. Surely the "spirit-directed" Governing Body would not squandor the money, would they?

winsome

9

More doctrine subtle changes in new book.

by Nemesis in

besides the scandal of the three missing chapters (especially the blood one) that are in the old book "united in worship of the only true god".

(1983) and are clearly missing from the new book: "worship the only true god.

1. i make a covenant with you for a kingdom.

winsome

This is amazing information!

Interestingly, "bibleexaminer" some time ago made some very insightful comments on possible changes ahead for the JW organization on this very same topic. The thread was entitled "Change In WTS Doctrine Underway". I posted some of the information below.

I had decided some time ago to go back and research the United Nations and comments made on this discussion board in the past. Here is what I found. After reading this section quoted, I think you will agree with me, the "changes" suggested in the new book, are consistent with suggestions mentioned in his post over a year ago. I think, its a good chance this startling information about the United Nations could very well have been the real purpose (along with changes on blood, the "anointed", etc.) for the much publicized October 8th, 2001 Meeting by the Governing Body, that strangely fizzled out at the last minute. The post below has to do with a certain talk given by a Circuit Overseer who in his talk shows Matthew 24 and modern-day applications about the United Nations Organization DO NOT fulfill bible prophecy today, nor fit into a modern day setting. These are significant changes of thought not heard before by JWs. (Please analyze.)

After reading this, you may agree with me in saying that maybe, just maybe the Governing Body really had something significant to tell us afterall at the big October 2001 Meeting. Something that might finally, actually "explain" their secret NGO status with the United Nations Organization for the past 10 years. But, as things would happen, someone "spilled the beans" a little early before they could officially present the information. (Some may remember, the former District Overseer "Maximus" all but stated there was to be presented "unforgetable", startling information that was to be given at the big October meeting.) So what you read in the new book may represent those changes. This may be it. But before the meeting could come off, the so-called apostates "stole their thunder" and "leaked" the UN Affair to the press and the Guardian ran the article before the meeting could get under way. The public and JW reaction was so bad, it would have been difficult to present this information with everything in an uproar. Thus the Governing Body, under advisement from Bethel Cronies created the "library card" defense. Only to have the "change" on the United Nations information to be revisited at a later time via printed books and so on. But on a gradual basis, like slow cooking a frog.

I think the information posted below supports my "take" on these mysterious, covert events. This was posted August 11, 2001, a couple months before the big meeting in October of 2001.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=9882&site=3

Excerpt from thread: "Change In WTS Doctrine Underway" by bibleexaminer.

*****************************snip*********************************

The Discussion

Recently, a Circuit Overseer has been giving a talk that involves certain verses in Matthew chapter 24. What he is preaching, one can be absolutely sure, is sanctioned by the Watchtower proper. Why it's important takes a few more paragraphs to explain because one must first have in mind the Watchtower's position up till this point. And to understand why this particular change is so significant also takes a few paragraphs. Yet this read should be rewarding.

The material I choose so to make the point is the Watchtower article of May 1, 1999 pages 14-20, where we find a few important points which find even more significance when taken in context with the recent sermons given by certain CO's.

The Watchtower is full of allegories. If the reader was ever associated with the Org, then the significance of Matthew 24:45 and the allegories invented by the Watchtower relative to this verse are plain. It is the single most important verse in the whole Bible for JW's. The entire authority structure of the Governing Body rests here. It is the "sacred cow" of the Watchtower. Therefore, any changes in doctrine relative to Matthew chapter 24 will have lasting effects on the Watchtower organization.

At Matthew 24:15-16 we read in the NWT

*** Rbi8 Matthew 24:15-16 ***
15 Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Jude'a begin fleeing to the mountains.

The Watchtower allegory that relates to these verses states that "the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple" (Note: all quotes are from the w99 5/1 14-20) This article goes on to say that "It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come"

Therefore, the Roman army was represented by the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" in this supposed "first" fulfillment and it's "standing in a holy place" was a prophecy concerning the time when the Roman army would undermine the wall in 66CE and Roman soldiers, Gentiles, would enter the Temple grounds.

Christians then would recognize this "sign" and when the Roman army retreated, they would take the opportunity to "begin fleeing to the mountains".

This is all well and good, and for a fact is a matter of history now. But the Watchtower does not leave it there. They insist, and have for many years, that this was only the "first" fulfillment, and the article goes on to say

"Since World War I, we have seen the larger fulfillment of Jesus sign recorded in Matthew chapter 24. Yet, recall his words: When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place, . . . then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. (Matthew 24:15, 16) This aspect of the prophecy must have a fulfillment in our time too."

They warn us that "OUR being alerted to an approaching calamity can enable us to avoid it."
Ohhh, we had better tune in!

The article further points out the characters in the Watchtower allegory when it says

"So in 1919 the disgusting thing appeared. In time, the League gave way to the United Nations. Jehovahs Witnesses have long exposed these human peace organizations as disgusting in Gods sight."

So, where in the "first" fulfillment, the "disgusting thing" was the Roman army, in this supposed "greater" or second fulfillment, the "disgusting thing" becomes the United Nations Organization.

But who then, in this "second" fulfillment, is represented by "Judea", the Jewish nation that was conquered with it's "holy place"? The article then relates

"On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the Peace on Earth International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave a significantly adjusted explanation" of the outworkings of these events. "The great tribulation such as will not occur again is yet ahead, for it means the destruction of the world empire of false religion (including Christendom) followed by the war of the great day of God the Almighty at Armageddon"

So then, the Watchtower allegory teaches that soon, very, very soon, the "disgusting thing" in the person of the United Nations Organization will stand in the modern-day "holy place" in the person of all religions of the earth, bar the Watchtower headquarters obviously, at which time it will be necessary for all good Jehovah's Witnesses to "begin fleeing to the mountains".

Interesting, then, isn't it, that

"As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the standing in a holy place would develop, so do present-day [Jehovah's Witnesses]."

Now does it make any sense at all, that Jehovah's Witnesses need to watch for an event where the UN goes to church, so that they know when to flee? FLEE WHAT? They are not in church are they?

16 Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the standing in a holy place still ahead of us? Evidently so. While the disgusting thing made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way in a holy place in the near future.

Doesn't make much sense, not to us, and obviously not to them either, for they go on to say " We cannot presently have full details about the great tribulation," and "Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details."

Well, this is a convenient "out" for the Watchtower, with regard to this self contradictory allegory. Who can explain such nonsense? The article says

"So the disgusting thing that causes desolation, which has existed since 1919, apparently is yet to stand in a holy place. How will this happen? And how can we be affected?" Yes Watchtower tell us, how can we be affected?

The watchtower explains

"Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this beast to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation."

That's all they have to offer in the way of explanation. I wonder how many letters the Watchtower received asking their "channel" how in the hell the UN's standing in say, the vatican, will be reason for JWs to flee. And flee from what? Supposedly JWs have already "fled" from the supposed modern-day counterpart of Judea/Jewry. As the article says

"We have for many decades been urging people to get out of false religion and to take up true worship."and "continue to maintain a clear distinction between themselves and false religious organizations."

What the hell does it matter to JWs that the UN is going to enter the Churches etc and axe them? If we aren't there, then we're just bystanders. As the aarticle says "After all, obedient Christians will not be punished when destruction comes on false religion and the rest of this wicked system."
Why worry then? Why do JWs need to "be discerning and heed the warning about the disgusting thing standing in a holy place. And they will act decisively on their unshakable faith."? WHY?

And how many asked our dear GB deskboyz, "If the Church is the "Holy Place" where the UN will stand, why have we all prematurely fled?" Did not Jesus say that "when you seeTHEN.." AND, if it's a "holy place" why did the Watchtower make us all flee it before our Lord directed?

So, it's no wonder that the Watchtower is going to change this self-contradictory nonsense by way of sermons given by COs instead of announcing it outright by way of their "channel" journal the Watchtower magazine. After the COs have made their rounds and given "new light" to congregations on a one-at -a-time basis, then the Watchtower can safely discuss Matthew chapter 24 with their new doctrine, and nobody will notice.So they thought!

The CO is giving a talk that in summary says that the allegory of so many years is now GONE. He is teaching that there is no "second" and "greater" fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-16 but that it was fulfilled in complete in the first century, and only upon Jewry.

Well. Like thinking minds didn't know that! The problem is, this doctrine was fundamental to their "sacred cow" dicta of Matthew 24:45 and the further allegorizing of the Watchtower. The Watchtower is slowly dismantling their power base by altering long held doctrine which is fundamentally important to their power base.

Time will tell, but this cannot last.

****************************snip********************************

What do you think?

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 14 July 2002 11:10:32

7

Diabolical, Isn't it? (New WT "Beroean")

by winsome in

"slave organization" re-defines a "beroean" -- ones "willing to believe" without checking scriptures

something very diabolical i believe is going on with the wts.

years ago, when i joined the jw organization, we were encouraged to become a "beroean".

winsome

"Slave Organization" Re-defines A "Beroean" -- Ones "Willing to Believe" Without Checking Scriptures

Something very diabolical I believe is going on with the WTS. Years ago, when I joined the JW organization, we were encouraged to become a "beroean". Back then, it used to be a good thing to be a "beroean". One who scrutinizes all things with regards to all "religious instruction". The true "beroean" was one who verifies, checks all important matters and "makes sure of all things" as to important "religious instruction". When it comes to these very important, the wise course would be NOT to foolishly " put faith in every word" but be "the shrewd one who carefully considered all his steps". The WTS initially recommended this course for all christians. What happened? -- Proverbs 14:15

In 1957, newly interested ones and rank and file JWs were given the following "food" as acceptable "christian" behavior, by the Faithful and Discreet Slave. The "Beroean" procedure was fully endorsed and encouraged by the WTS to assist individuals to arrive a proper understanding of scripture and God's Will. The WTS said:

"Third, to lay a foundation for understanding that is sound, one must be willing to compare any religious instruction he receives with the Scriptures. Can it be proved by the Bible? If not, then reject it. God's command is: "Make sure of all things." The Bible commends those who do this, such as the Beroeans of whom the scripture says: "Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest readiness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so." They examined even the teaching of the apostle Paul, checking it carefully with the Scriptures. So lay the right kind of foundation for understanding by following the Bible counsel: "Prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and complete will of God." -- 1 Thess. 5:21; Acts 17:11; Rom. 12:2 -- 6/1/1957 Watchtower page 327

So a Beroean was one who "carefully examined the scriptures" to make sure, the message had true scriptural backing. They "carefully checked the scriptures", daily. The WTS said: If the teacher couldn't prove it, then reject it! Even if the teaching was from Paul an apostle, no that didn't matter. Paul's teachings was not exempt from this possibility of proper "rejection" using the "Beroean" procedure. The Beroean was the recommended course. He was one who always "proved to himself" all things. He made sure. And we notice the WTS used 1 Thess. 5:21 and Romans 12:2 in conjunction with Acts 17:11, which say, "prove it to yourself" the will of God, and "make sure of all things". That's "Beroean" procedure.

Now, the latest spiritual "food" from the "faithful and discreet slave organization" on the attitude of a "Beroean".

"But does this mean that those Beroeans were looking for flaws in the message they were hearing, or that their attitude was one of doubting? Does this set a precedent for regarding critically the publications brought forth by the faithful and discreet slave, with a view to finding fault? Not at all!...These Beroeans listened with a readiness, yes, an eagerness, to believe. Thus not only were they open-minded, but they were wanting to have this good news proved true. In fact, for a person to acquire faith he must have "the will to believe." If he is determined not to believe, then no amount of evidence will convince him; for if a person looks for them he can always find excuses, plausible reasons for not accepting the accountability that belief will bring upon him...But the Beroeans had the will to believe. They considered what they heard with a receptive frame of mind...Jesus' disciples wrote many letters to Christian congregations, to persons who were already in the way of the truth." But nowhere do we read that those brothers first, in a skeptical frame of mind, checked the Scriptures to make certain that those letters had Scriptural backing, that the writers really knew what they were talking about...the record that the faithful and discreet slave organization has made for the past more than 100 years forces us to the conclusion that Peter expressed when Jesus asked if his apostles also wanted to leave him, namely, "Whom shall we go away to?" No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the faithful and discreet slave organization." -- 2/15/81 Watchtower pages 18, 19

So now, "the faithful and discreet slave organization" (and not Jehovah's apparently), says the brothers of the first century DID NOT CHECK THE SCRIPTURES to make certain of the veracity or truthfulness of the message. They did not check the scriptures, but approached these things with an "open frame of mind" and genuine "willingness to believe". This is what's important. The attitude of the reader. The "Beroean" would just accept the message without checking. Otherwise, that would be a "critical", "skeptical frame of mind". That would be an unseemly inappropriate attitude to take on all messages coming forth from the "faithful and discreet slave organization" and publications "coming forth" from them. Do not check, just be willing to believe the "slave". Because "you cannot find the scriptural guidance you need outside" of the WTS. So just be willing to believe.

Does anybody else here see something awfully diabolical or sinister in such a statement?

Big change here, I think.

BTW, on another "sinister" note, when did it change from "Jehovah's Organization" to the "faithful and discreet slave organization"? I thought the organization belonged to Jehovah? Did that change? What's this "faithful and discreet slave organization" stuff I'm reading? I missed that one. Has anyone else noticed that subtle change in their writings?

winsome

37

Judgement Starts At The House Of God

by NewWay in

i'm an english man in my early 40s, was brought up as a jw, got baptized when i was in my teens, and married in my early 20s.

i have two sons and two daughters ranging from 6 years of age to 18.. .

although my wife associates with one of the local congregations of jws, i no longer attend or participate in jw activities.

winsome

Greetings NewWay.

You might be interested to know that not too long ago I was actually on debate boards trying to defend the organisation, and the same types as YouKnow appeared who opposed the organisation.

If you don't mind me asking, what changed your mind? I'm curious.

Thanks.

winsome

17

GB has dealt treacherously with Younger Anointed!

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

the younger anointed (those who came in after 1935) in the organization are treated by the gb as both a whore and a beloved wife.. the whore: for years they have published articles whose intent was to denigrate the younger anointed.

as a result many of these younger anointed ones have had to fight a spiritual uphill battle with their elders and circuit overseers because the watchtower paints them as falsely claiming spiritual union with the christ.. .

the beloved wife: yet, it is from this group of younger anointed that the gb has picked 5 members of the governing body!!

winsome

First century christians who were anointed, had an undeniable "umbilical cord" tie-in with God, through the holy spirit.

"The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children." -- Romans 8:16

This special "umbilical cord" tie-in with God, kept them on course to their final destiny of their heavenly reward and complete faithfulness to God. So, if by chance an anointed christian should begin to veer off in any way from his christian course, the holy spirit would be "grieved" or "saddened" and God would immediately let them know they were going OFF TRACK. This would insure their faithfulness on their part, and would make all serious transgressions against God, to be considered totally DELIBERATE sins and unforgivable ones, if practiced over a prolonged period of time. (Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26) They would have to sin with express knowledge of God's disapproval, and persist in it. This being the case, if the anointed christian began a course of "sin", upon being notified by God through the spirit, they would either have to immediately change or repent, if they wished to continue to have His favor. Or else, they would lose their "umbilical cord" tie-in with God, and their spiritual status with as "children of God" because of deliberate sin. Therefore, the spirit would "bear witness" constantly with the anointed christian, to keep them on track.

Paul warns anointed christians,

"Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom." -- Ephesians 4:30

Anointed christians did not "grieve" God's spirit and expect to retain God's favor. No but the Bible shows the Holy spirit acted as a "reproductive seed" planted within them, to keep them on the right track and thus on a continued course of faithfulness in God's favor.

"Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God." -- 1 John 3:9

Today, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to have more than 8,700 anointed christians in their midst. But since 1991, something has occurred that actually belies that claim.

For instance, did we notice any evidence that the "anointed" christians among JWs were "grieved" by God or notified "thru the spirit" in any way over a 10 year period when the Governing Body became "secret" NGO's with the United Nations Organization and secretly used the publications to give support to that institution or instrument of Satan? Do we see any evidence of this happening?

In the June 1, 1991 Watchtower magazine, the WTS showed the Catholic Church possessing some 24 NGO supporting institutions for the United Nation Organization. They condemned this as being spiritual adultery on the Catholics part. However, during this time, the Governing Body themselves were applying for official status as NGO for the Watchtower Society's Organization, the same as the Catholics. And whatsmore, the Governing Body of the JWs was more than willing, for the past 10 years, to use the printed publications the WTS as a publicity communication vehicle for the DPI of the UN Organization to show them in a favorable light. All the while publicly condemning the Catholic Church for doing the same thing, since the year of 1991.

Now we've come to realize that this horribly hypocritical situation went on for some 10 years with only Jehovah knowing about it, till October 2001. Only Jehovah knew this.

Since we know this secret action of the the Governing Body must have been displeasing to God, why didn't God take action and notify His "anointed" that something was terribly wrong, during that 10 year period between 1991 and 2001? Why was not God's Holy Spirit "grieved" among the 8,700 anointed JWs worldwide over that same 10-year period?

Where is the evidence of "grieving the spirit", an "umbilical cord" tie-in with JWs, as it was among first century christians?

For more details, please see this link:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=25225&site=3

winsome

Edited by - winsome on 10 June 2002 12:28:29