Marcos

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Posts by Marcos

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  17

  Update since yesterday...

  by scaredyetresolved in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i shared the board with my husband last night.

  he read my post and the replies.

  we both really appreciate all of your words.

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  Marcos

  Congratulations and Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday(s), etc.

  I am truly happy for you. Majorly impressed that the 3 baptized ones in the family are in agreement.

  You sound like a great family. Know that there are many of us who have never lost our faith in the True God. I know I feel that I came out of spiritual darkness instead of the reverse. My only advice is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Keep what was good and true in their teachings - there are many truths. There have to be because for the lies to be believeable there must be truth (although twisted sometimes) to back them up.

  Enjoy your new freedom.

  Marcos
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  29

  I graduated from college today

  by ChrisVance in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  at the age of 53 i graduated from arizona state university with a bachelor's in spanish.

  when everyone stood for the national athem i felt a little guilty at first, but i soon got over it!

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  Marcos

  Katie (yeah what Marco said.......I hope that isn't something dirty)

  Bikerchick,

  How could you even THINK that of me?

  Marcos
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  7

  Differences in countries

  by Dawn in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's been a while since i've posted - have had an awful lot going on here.

  but i have had a very interesting experience and was wondering if any of you that have dealt with jw's in different countries have noticed this.

  i'll make it as short as possible.. my father passed away last year.

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  Marcos

  Yes Metatron,

  kinda Aryan, don't ya think?

  Do you remember Carl Hoppe? I think he was the head cook. I think he was German. I remember the food being heavy and greasy. It was quite a change from what I was used to.

  One of my sharpest memories was Sundays. They provided one meal, breakfast. As I recall we weren't supposed to keep food in our rooms. But many of us did. It was a major coup to have a refridgerator in our rooms (that was tolerated). We used to fill it with cheese and whatever meat we could scrounge. The thought was that you were supposed to spend the day with your cong. and that THEY were supposed to feed you. That didn't happen much and at first I spend a lot of hungry Sundays.

  When you were first at the Bethel cong., who was going to feed you? Later, in my assigned cong., Adelphi Spanish in Brooklyn, the brothers and sisters were poor. They really couldn't afford to feed a hungry 18 year old all of the time. Later, my girlfriend's mom did but I knew that it was a strain so I tried not to impose that much. But I was a hungry boy!

  I remember thinking what a cabron Knorr was. I feel ashamed to say it but I really disliked him.

  But this overwhelming teutonic atmosphere just seems to dominate my memories. I felt like a complete foriegner. It seems that the culture and opinions of the leaders in any group seem to permeate the attitudes of any org. It also seemed to drive us foriegners to group together for warmth.

  My best memories are of the time I was able to spend with other Tejanos in Bethel. There were many non-hispanic brothers also who were great. But there was a definite wall between all of us lowly workers and the more "mature" brothers. You always knew you would never go anywhere in the org. or be trusted by the "good" ones.

  Guess I'm rambling. It is just now that a lot of the bs is coming back to me.

  Later,

  Marcos
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  29

  I graduated from college today

  by ChrisVance in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  at the age of 53 i graduated from arizona state university with a bachelor's in spanish.

  when everyone stood for the national athem i felt a little guilty at first, but i soon got over it!

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  Marcos

  FELICIDADES!

  Bien hecho. Tu logro me inspira.

  Marcos
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  20

  DA'd after 50 years over pedophile issue!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from http://www.exjws.net/pioneers/pioneers.htm.

  anthony o. munoz.

  and his disassociation letter after 50 years in the wt.

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  Marcos

  Absolutely Brilliant!

  Mr. Munoz is an inspiration. Following are just a few comments:

  "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death an the testimony of only one witness " Deu 17:6 NIV.

  I really need to keep on reading and studying the Bible. The WT has really taken this out of context and all I had to do was look up the scripture!

  selling of books and magazines produced with slave labor at your factories, just for food and lodging,

  Amen from an ex-bethelite who was there. Note: and we were treated like "worthless slaves".

  not to marry, not to have children, not to go to College. But to work for the interest of the Kingdom

  A large part of my "conditioning" and the parts of my life I regret the most.

  I don't know how many times this ruse to stir the people has to be repeated to convince one that you are false prophets and that God is not with you.

  So true. Just ONE false prophecy negates the prophet as being of God.

  still feel contaminated

  In the thread I started "How have you rooted out the WT (harmful) doctrines"http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42702&site=3, this is what I am referring to.

  Thanks, Anthony (and Randy)

  Marcos

  Happy to become a Senior Member with this post!

  Edited by - marcos on 19 December 2002 19:33:38

  Edited by - marcos on 19 December 2002 19:34:46
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  17

  what colour was jesus

  by nightwarrior in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  why all the racismn within the world .

  ,personaly i cant understand it,i know people can be racist against culture,but colour ,come of it.

  ,jesus was brown ,mosess was black he had to be living in egypt ,have angels got a colour if not why not ,dont be afraid to answer as i wont hold it against you if you dont ,me i have great friends from all nationalitys .have you transended from the obligitory type cast person that you were born has your life been enriched by meeting someone of another culture, i know we have been richly rewarded.

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  Marcos

  Probably going to get my first flame(s) over this one.

  mosess was black he had to be living in egypt

  Everything I have ever read indicates that the Egyptians were simitic. A brown-skinned "race". They also dipicted themselves as brown-skinned in their art and you could readily see that they dipicted black people as black. What the Egyptians or Jews are now is not necessarily what they were 2000 years ago. So to say that Moses must have been black because he living in Egypt does not follow.

  There seems to be a lot of revisionist history taught as fact in schools now regarding how people "wish" things had been in the past. But most history is "revisionist". Someone once said that history is always written by the victors (This is a paraphrase, not a quote. Please feel free to correct it.) But historical drawings by the culture itsself seem to be pretty conclusive. (That is, to me! I'm not a historian or Bible scholar or any note. What matters to me is not being right but, what is the truth. Enlighten me scholars.)

  I, personally don't believe in the concept or race. We are certainly not told in the Bible that, "Black and white He created them." In We are simply told that,

  "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." -Genesis 1:27 RSV

  So, what color was Jesus? Brown, I guess. But I, like everyone else, will have to wait and see.

  Respectfully,

  Marcos
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  7

  Differences in countries

  by Dawn in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's been a while since i've posted - have had an awful lot going on here.

  but i have had a very interesting experience and was wondering if any of you that have dealt with jw's in different countries have noticed this.

  i'll make it as short as possible.. my father passed away last year.

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  Marcos

  I'm not sure if what I can share with you will be useful or not but, here goes.

  When I went to Bethel from our hispanic congregation in Texas in the late 1960s, I was shocked at the coldness of the "brothers" in Bethel. It was one of the reasons I was sure I had made a mistake within my first 2 weeks of Bethel service.

  As I spent more time there, the overwhelming impression I got was that if you were not "German" enough, you were nothing. Note that my understanding is that Knorr and many of the good ol boys were of German extraction. I could be wrong but that is what I was always told. Everything there seemed to be sort of on a German model, from the way the schedules and assignments were set up to the food.

  I've got no problem with Gemans. But the culture strikes a Latino as being a little cold. I have a student in Cuba who is a diplomat and went to Germany for a while and that is his impression too.

  In Texas, everyone was friendly in our cong. There were fights and the inevitable gossip (Think the gringos are bad about gossip? They are no contest!) Despite all of the problems, the atmosphere was warm. In the English cong. that my parents attended there was a lot of gossip too. But the most outstanding thing was the hierarchy. If you weren't the right sort of folks, the hicks brothers would not have much to do with you.

  I have never attended and will never attend any kh here but, in general, the latinos are slower to shun someone. It is just considered bad form here to ignore someone you know or who is connected to someone they know.

  To be fair, in the US I met many very nice people who were witnesses and had a lot of friends. It is just that the culture is different. We generally describe it as being colder.

  For what it's worth. These are only my impressions. As far as the "German" comments, perhaps some other ex-bethelite could give his or her impressions. Did you hear the same comments in Bethel?

  Marcos (of the American-loving, German-loving Class)
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  23

  Thank you for your replies!

  by scaredyetresolved in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i told my husband last week that i didn't plan on going to chats or forums.

  we've been trying very hard to stay on neutral ground.

  we began by just researching all the history of jws and turning to the publications published by the society, to either back the history we were reading, or to dispel it.

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  Marcos

  Hi scaredyetresolved.

  I won't add much to what has already been said. Most of the posters here say it so much better than I can.

  I do understand your position. Just remember that you will never "lose" your family. They will always be your family. Some will probably shun you when you take a stand. Remember, however, that you will be setting an example for them and when they have their crisis of faith, they will remember you and your husband (and hopefully) your children and will come back to you. Families fight. Perhaps this has never been so in your family (smile). But your blood-ties will eventually win out.

  If you stay, you are giving tacit approval to the false teachings of the WT and this could be the more harmful course.

  Just realize that the WT has NO AUTHORITY over you that you do not allow it to have. Leave! But do it on your own terms and in your own time. Don't rush. As you may have discovered, they are not God's representative. He deals with us as individuals, not an organization. The WT even teaches this. To paraphrase, "If you do everything correctly and follow Gods laws (read: their laws), MAYBE you MIGHT be preserved in the day of His wrath."

  It is not an organization that saves you. It is Jesus.

  Not trying to be preachy either. Read other's experiences and educate yourself. Pray. God will hear you. You will experience pain and betrayal. But you will be richly rewarded for obeying God, not man.

  We, also, are here for you. Talk to us, ask us for advice and our experiences. We all love to talk! Also, be discriminating. Not all advice is good advice. Sift through it and accept what you can. Your experience is (and will be) unique.

  I don't know you all but I do also love you (agape). Slow down, take a breath, and do what you must in your own time.

  Marcos
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  7

  To Save a Witness Life

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  elsewhere on this forum, the subject of witness suicide came up.

  some project.

  images of jonestown and a dying organization ordering its membership to take their.

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  Marcos

  You are right, metatron.

  metatron ( old Bethelites know 'how it is')

  The thread you refer to is probably mine: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/default.asp?site=3

  As I mentioned, the thrust of my question was not so much suicide but more along the lines of what the WT might look like in the near future. But, the points made regarding suicide are chilling.

  I sincerely hope that this will never be the case. But you can bet your bottom dollar that if something similar happens, the good old boys at the GB will still be with us accusing the brothers of "overreacting" to a message the GB never gave (ref. 1975).

  Marcos
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  15

  What will the WT become? (Sort of a Survey)

  by Marcos in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have been out for a long time.

  to give you an idea of how long, the concept of not offering subscriptions anymore is news to me!.

  as they continue consolidating and down-sizing, what affect do you all think this will have on individual witnesses and on their organization as a whole?

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  Marcos

  Very thoughtful posts by all.

  I would like to mention, however, that I only used the suicide examples as extreme examples. My original thought was whether of not the JWs would become a marginal group like the Amish, for example. We have them (Amish) here in Mexico also. Definitely not main-stream and looked upon as sort of strange here.

  Having said that, many of you have posted ideas along the suicide line of thought and I find your thoughts interesting but also chilling. To talk about the past and present thinking on suicide, my own mother is an example (although admittedly a streach). She was a witness for many years but sort of and independent one. She was eventually df'd for her smoking and defiant attitude. But, her thinking was tainted by them. When she was at the end one of my aunts came to stay with her (her sister). The doctors had implanted a tube into her heart to facilitate injection of morphine because her breathing actually became unbearable.

  My mother had already determined that she would opt out for an od if she just couldn't take it anymore. I asked my aunt to call me if that were to happen. I lived about 15 min. away. Well, it all happened so fast. My aunt couldn't call and when she did call it was done. I was not and am not angry at my aunt at all. She spared me that. Additionally she was a hospice nurse so I know she knew what she was doing. But this is off the point.

  My mom knew the teachings about suicide but had long ago determined what she would do even when she was a witness. So, it is possible that, given pressure from above so to speak, there are ones among the WT who are weak-minded enough to kill themselves or join in a jihad at the behest of the GB. I think of the things that I might have done (joyfully) at God's (may God forgive me for my stupidity) direction.

  I never thought I was weak-minded but, in the light of this discussion, I think I was. Incidentally, that is one of the FIRST things I changed when I left. I'm not so easily influenced now.

  People under extreme stress (and the witnesses are) will react in an extreme manner given the right circumstances. One thing I tell my son is that, as an individual you are moral and reasonable. But, when you are a part of a group, the group becomes a single animal with one mind. When you are a part of a group you will do things you NEVER thought you would be capable of doing. Choose your associates wisely.

  Marcos