in relation to the watchtower's decline, in money and doctrine, the third world factor.
rarely is brought up.
originally, witnesses were mostly american and european but.
P.S. Metatron,
We're not all "third world types" here in Mexico and Latin America. We have a burgeoning, well-educated middle class. Some of us even have computers!
Damn! Gotta go. Have to chase those pinche pigs out of mama's kitchen again!
Marcos
Edited by - marcos on 31 December 2002 14:18:2
in relation to the watchtower's decline, in money and doctrine, the third world factor.
rarely is brought up.
originally, witnesses were mostly american and european but.
Metatron,
The Third World/Watchtower factor
Very true. The growth of the WT and the Mormons is, by all reports phenomenal here in Mexico.
I see at as a backlash to Catholicism. People are not happy with the church/state coziness in this "secular" nation of the past and are looking for ANY way to change.
Marcos
according to john 1:1, jesus is god.
how do jehovah's witnesses rationalize that blatant statement of jesus' deity?
To JesusISJehovah and all.
I am sincerely impressed by the scholarship evident on this thread! Another reason to continue visiting here.
2 points. #1. JesusISJehovah says:
he wanted the Jews to refer to him as I AM, and they spoke Yiddish.
I would believe that this is a typo except for the fact that you said it again in the same post. (Anyone) correct me if I am wrong but either the Germans have been around a lot longer than we give them credit for or your understanding of linguistics may be flawed. Yiddish is a Hebrew-German pidgin and only came into use as the Jews began living among the Germans. There is another, perhaps older, pidgin called Sehphardic (Spanish) that was and is currently spoken by the Marranos (Spanish for pig as the Jews were designated by their inquisitors) who are Spanish Jews who were expelled from Spain during the Inquisition. These people still live in North Africa, Asia Minor and in the Balkans as well as in Latin America.
As for the question of whether Jesus is Jehovah, I believe that he did make that claim in referring to himself as the I AM.
John 8:56-58. Jesus speaking to unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)
John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...."
John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!
Paraphrased from this site: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/claims.html
This is a new concept for me since I spent most of my early years as a JW.
Marcos
Edited for continuity. And because I had a hard time getting the formatting right!
Edited by - marcos on 31 December 2002 13:42:55
Edited by - marcos on 31 December 2002 13:46:12
i must say that i am troubled by those of you who have likened the jw's to the borg.
the collective is nothing like the organization.
the borg assimilate and improve themselves as a whole.
siegswife,
Chingus - anglicized form of chingazo or chingadera; a thing. Vugar. Derived from the verb chingar to f**k. Meaning "that f**king thing.
But it does fit the use, doesn't it?
Marcos
right now i am really mad and depressed.
in my job as a cab driver, i have only working one day out of the last six!
i have to get another job.
Gil,
I have posted to you before and sent you e-mails. I do understand some of what you are going through. But I must ask you,
Are you having us on?
I just would like to know if you are really having problems or if you are enjoying the attention you generate. I have no intention of belittling you. However, a few people have come on this board just to provoke reactions. Give us a clue because if you are using the board for amusement it is cruel and a waste of everyones time.
Now, I have followed most of your posts. One thing that sticks out in my mind is that you mentioned that you do not get along with people. Well, you are almost 30 years old (if memory serves). Get a grip. Suck it up and begin to relate to people in a constructive manner even if it hurts.
You might consider something that has worked well for me personally in developing patience and people-skills. That is, take a job as a waiter. Doing this, you HAVE to treat the customer with respect and kindness even the hard-to-deal-with ones. The downside is that your feet will hurt and you will take a lot of crap. The upside is that, if you learn to serve your customer well, you can make more tips in one night than you would make in salary as a cab driver in a week. 20 years ago, I averaged $100 a night in tips in a small to medium city. Las Vegas should be much better. Chances of getting a job should be good because it is usually a high-turnover business. And, it is easy to learn with the possible exception of the high-end restaurants and banquets.
This is something you could start tomorrow morning! You may be suffering now from depression and inertia. Get up early and go out and get a job tomorrow. You can probably even keep your one-day a week as a cabbie.
It is obvious that the people here care about you. Keep talking to us but dont play with us.
Respectfully Your Friend,
Marcos
i am feeling a bit emotional today,,,,,, i was watching cnn today and there is a big debate going on , if they are going to do another draft like back in the vietnam war.
this made me stand still in my tracks.
omg.
Hey LyinEyes,
Reading this post brings back a lot of memories for me. I was prime for the US draft when I was a teenager. Any young man, regardless of nationality, was eligible. I was a witness at the time and dutifully declined to go into the military.
I also chose not to go to Canada. I spoke to the board, was offered options and declined. I was threatened with jail time and was so convinced of the correctness of my decision that I simply told them to bring it on. This was in Texas. Nationalism was high, especially in the south. My mothers family (consisting originally of 10 uncles) were ALL military. It wasnt an easy decision.
I saw (worldly) friends go into the military. Some came home some didnt. I saw friends that were witnesses go to jail and others not.
I have never criticized anyone for going into the military. The only thing that shamed me was the treatment received by a lot, if not most, of the guys returning home. I thought then as I do now that most of them did what they felt was their duty and obligation.
As for my personal decision not to go, I did not and do not regret it. My decision was based on conscience. Knowing then what I know now I would still be a conscientious objector. The only difference is that I would have opted for alternative service. For me, however, possibly dying was not the issue. My decision was based on my understanding of the Bible and how I view my relation to the government.
Perhaps it is inappropriate for me to offer advice. But, being who I am, here is my advice. You dont have to be a member of a religious organization to claim status as a conscientious objector. If I am mistake in this belief, someone will undoubtedly correct me.
If your son(s) make the decision to volunteer or to sign up for the draft, you would do well to respect their feelings. If you stand in the way they will probably resent it. If you dont you will be showing them that you respect them as young men and they will love you for it. Forgive me for saying this but, if the only reason they can give for not going is, my mama wont let me, they will feel humiliated. Not good for a healthy relationship.
If they accept service or refuse it it should be because they truly believe in their particular decision. Needless to say, the government wont accept a half-hearted excuse either. You have trained your son. There is much more you can (and will) teach him. But you have to rely on his understanding and application of your teaching. It is time for him to start to reason on his own and come to a workable understanding of his reasons for going or not.
Believe me, as a father, I would be heartbroken to see my own son go to war. I am proud of him as a son and would be proud of him if he were an American and decided to go. I would be equally proud of him if his conscience would not allow it. But, in any event, it would be his decision. You really cant make it for him.
I have nothing but high regard for the men and women who decide that military service is what they must do. And, I am touched and saddened when some of them die in service. I firmly believe that it IS a matter of conscience.
I doubt that this is of much comfort to you or to any other mother or father who might face such a prospect. But I hope that in some way what I have said will be useful.
Marcos
i approach this thread with some trepidation.
i understand that most of us here have had a bad to terrible experience with an organization that is highly judgmental and vengeful in its approach to its members.
so i post this with the utmost respect toward all who wish to read it.
Right on, Countrygirl!
Just the kind of down-home, horse sense I would expect! Seriously, I appreciate the comment.
I agree and that is what I am getting at. Condemning someone is a problem. We really dont know enough about most individuals to condemn them.
But. Are there not things or people you would condemn? Or would you condemn certain acts?
Thanks for your comments.
Marcos
i approach this thread with some trepidation.
i understand that most of us here have had a bad to terrible experience with an organization that is highly judgmental and vengeful in its approach to its members.
so i post this with the utmost respect toward all who wish to read it.
Hi Rebel.
Still, my point is that we must judge. Let me give an example of how I believe we all judge. I admit going in that it is a little extreme and it is not in the spirit of getting my own way. I simply think that many have taken a part of what Jesus said and often bent it to fit the modern philosophy of whatever you or I do is ok lets not be judgmental.
Perhaps we are all in agreement that Hitler went way overboard (as did Stalin and many other world leaders).
The background is this: where I live we have a real problem with illegal aliens crossing the border and putting a strain on our resources. Many of them are really needy and cant live in their own country. An attendant problem is the importation of two gangs from El Salvador, the Salvatruchas (this is a slightly pejorative term for people from El Salvador much like the term Cachuco is used for Guatemalans). They have divided my city into two camps. One group is called the 13 and the other is called the 18.
The leaders are not Mexican. They are Salvadorian.
These guys absolutely terrorize school kids (beatings, knifings and outright killings) as well as people who live in some of the barrios (neighborhoods) here.
My son, who is now 19 and just graduated high school, was just talking to me the other day. He is a very well balanced and nice kid. He doesnt fight and believes in law and order. His idea was this: I would love to get together a band of guys to start sort of a counter gang. What we would do is this; patrol the city and catch gang members, beat them up and dump them across the border with a warning never to come back. I told him that the majority are now Mexicans. He said that it didnt matter, now they have betrayed Mexico by breaking the law and living by the rule of the Salvatruchas. They are now Salvadorenos, not Mexicans.
I told him that this is a very bad idea and violates not only Mexican law but also international law. I judged that this would be a bad thing for a young Christian to be involved in.
I also judge that some people he associated with were bad associates. However, I also give him room to make his own decisions. His response to me when I asked him if I had ever given him bad advice was, No, EVERYTHING you have ever told me has been correct. You are almost always right.
No sarcasm intended here but, do you think I should let him walk in the other guys shoes to see if they have a valid viewpoint? Or is it my duty as his father to point out bad associates and the consequences of evil actions?
In addition to the quote at Matthew 7:1 5, Jesus also said:
first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" in verse 5.
"Beware of false prophets!" (Matthew 7:15) is the warning and command of our Lord. But how could we "beware" and how could we know they are "false prophets" if we did not judge? And what is the God given standard by which we are to judge? " To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), Christ said. And in judging the "fruits," we must judge by God's Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning. Many things seem good to human judgment which are false to the Word of God. http://www.surefoundation.org/JudgeNot.htm
We are also told to judge or discern according to the fruits of the one being judged. Have we not also judged that the fruits of the WTS are bad?
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20).
These particular scriptures (and there are more) are in the words of Jesus. My contention is that we ARE to judge but to be careful that we are not guilty of the same failures (i.e. removing the rafter from our own eye).
I do not advocate being hypercritical of people. If we believe someone is wrong, it is best to talk to them privately. That is, if that one is a believer. Also, I think that if we have any leverage with someone like a friend or an acquaintance (for instance here on this site) we should, and do, offer criticisms of their reasoning. But we must tread lightly so as to give that person leeway to make their own decision as to whether what we say is right of wrong.
Empathy also is extremely important. You are very correct in stating that we dont have any idea what the other person may have experienced in their lives. But, that goes both ways.
This post has gone way beyond what I had intended. But I do want to say that I appreciate your comments. I just dont like it when people use a part of what Jesus taught without regard for the entire message. We avoid the use of judging simply because it is a trigger word for so many people who dont even believe in Jesus. We are not only victims of the WT, we are also victims of popular culture.
Thanks again for your comments.
Marcos
P.S. I found more information on the word krinos. It can be found here: http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/judging/
These are sites I have found in searches on Google and I cant say that I agree 100% with everything on these sites. I just found them interesting.
i was just wondering what some people's favorite scriptures are.
one of my favorites is .
matthew 7:1-5 .
Happy!
This is my favorite scripture for today. We are discussing it here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43413&site=3
Marcos
i approach this thread with some trepidation.
i understand that most of us here have had a bad to terrible experience with an organization that is highly judgmental and vengeful in its approach to its members.
so i post this with the utmost respect toward all who wish to read it.
Xena,
To me being judgemental is to judge another as being worthy or unworthy
My point also. I think those things are not in our purvue. My understanding is that that is precisely what Jesus was saying. This because he also talks about judging in several other instances in a positive way.
I think we have to be reasonable in all things and not be swayed by popular opinion unless we have really examined the thinking behind the opinion to see if it is sound.
Marcos
