Why then do we seek to negotiate with the North Koreans- who took $$$$ to not build weapons of mass destruction- then admits to having them-
kelsey007
JoinedPosts by kelsey007
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Stop The War in IRAQ!! (CSPAN)
by sf intake some time today people and tune in and educate yourselves a bit about this 'system of things'.. no war in iraq!!!.
no blood for oil!!.
skally
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The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!
by bjc2012 inand for those reasons, coj wanted in the beginning, to stay with the organization, just like bill bowens.
that is all carl wanted.
yes, as members of the governing body, they knew full well, exactly what carl's writings meant.
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kelsey007
I have never viewed either Mr Bowen or Mr Franz as heros or anything other than men. As for Mr Franzs book, as enlightening as it has been it has always been my opinion that it was written primarily because Mr Franz needed as income and given his insight gained due to postition in the WT it was only reasonable that he write such a tell all book. To view him as an apologist because he has conducted himself as a gentleman is as rediculice to me as saying that Mr Bowen is a martyer. To put either man in hero status is indeed a bad move. Mr Franz, being twice the age of MR Bowen, has persented his expose in a more non-emotional way. In so doing his books have helped many that may have never pcked up the books had they been written with a Bowen like tone.
This entire debate to me has been one -not of is Mr Bowen telling the truth or is Mr Franz telling the truth- it has been about the wrongness of Bowen and silent lambs supporters publicly throwing out accusations against individuals and quoting private conversations in a public forum. Reputations are easily damaged when men who have placed themselves in leadership capacities use a tounge unbridled. Much pain and emotion has been stirred due to unkind words and unwarrented accusations stated by Mr Bowen and some of his supporters. True or not- should not be the baromiter by which to decide to publicly quote from private conversations and throw out wild unprovable accusations that when publicly stated are bought into by many of the hearers as fact. Many things stated by Mr Bowen and some of his supporters have not brought any gain in aid of abuse victims and indeed undermine the stated goals of the movement. Mr Bowen has set the tone for nagative comments directed toward others. Having set that tone he must live with it for a while. SInce he has brought that tone to the movement he has turned many off and offended many who are in the recovery process from a WT life. Now that tone will be hard to change or correct. It takes years to build a good name and one minute to destroy it.
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The real issue
by kelsey007 inthe way i see it is that mr bowen brought himself to the fore in this program.
he made a public spectacle of himself.
in doing so he has naturally, in a free society, opened himself up to critism.
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kelsey007
Ahh might I point out that the elders are overwhelmed and the GB is overwhelmed but we continue to beat that dead horse. Only if we were so nice to all we disagree with. Could we do more in our support of changing the WT by excusing thier bad actions? They had abundant growth. In the heat of things they made bad moves- gave bad dates- lets all move on and allow them their human frailties. Can you imagine being on the GB? They havent had time to regroup and think about the mistakes they made on 1975 and now they have to deal with the reality of how they've screwed up on the pediphile thing- should we excuse them as we do Bowen? Should we drop that and give them time to work it out?
Mr Bowen has hurt and helped people. So has the WT. Wrong conduct is wrong conduct. If we are intent on beating the WT horse deader then what is the harm in beating all dead horses over again? Maybe because it just isnt dead yet. If you are going to sling the mud- look out some of it will land on yourself...... And one day I hope that all JWs, catholics, muslims and others will be OK. Till then if I decide to put myself into the forefront of a movement I had best be prepared to be put under the microscope myself. Better these things be brought out here than elsewhere. And Mr Bowen has hurt and deeply offended many recovering ex-jws. The abuse victims are putting trust in this man and his movement. If he screws this up because of personal issues these poor abuse victims will have had thier trust betrayed twice- once from untrained elders and again from an untrained defender of their cause. Where will they then turn? Is this about Bill Bowen and or about the victims? Should the victims be subjected to such conduct after what they already have been through? Is such conduct and attitudes a good, healthy thing for thier recovery or does it damage them further and fuel their anger?
Edited by - kelsey007 on 25 October 2002 2:11:26
Edited by - kelsey007 on 25 October 2002 2:18:1
Edited by - kelsey007 on 25 October 2002 2:26:20
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The real issue
by kelsey007 inthe way i see it is that mr bowen brought himself to the fore in this program.
he made a public spectacle of himself.
in doing so he has naturally, in a free society, opened himself up to critism.
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kelsey007
The way I see it is that Mr Bowen brought himself to the fore in this program. He made a public spectacle of himself. In doing so he has naturally, in a free society, opened himself up to critism. Unfortunately for the abuse victims whom he claims to work for, he has stated some very inappropriate things - whether true or not. Now his pride seems to be keeping him from just saying - I am sorry for stating the things I stated about Mr Franz in such a public forum. Sadly to me this is complicated due to the fact that all know that Mr Franz does not visit these boards. Why would a caring person who's goal is to aid abuse victims expend any energy posting any negatives about anyone in a public forum? What was the gain? Whether Mr Bowens accusations were true or not is to me not the issue. The issue is rather why would a good person do such a thing? Why would one take private conversations with anyone and make them public? Does not that betray a trust? Certainly one would be skeptical about pouring ones heart out to anyone that does such a thing. My mom writes me a letter and I post it for all to read???? This is the problem I have with all this. This makes me question the integrity of the person. If I were Ray Franz I would question the intent of any call I received from this individual for fear that my words would end up in a public venue. Did Mr Bowen ask Mr Franz or inform Mr Franz beforehand that his intent was to quote him in a public media? Even reporters are respectful enough to ask the person they are interviewing if they can be quoted before quoting them. I honestly think that this is the issue more so than bill is right or ray is right. The wrong was the posting of any part of the conversation without persmission of the person being quoted.
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So, "Is Ray Franz GREAT or What???"
by minimus ini just read amazing's thread on ray franz' response.
the question was raised regarding the so-called "sarcasm" that bill bowen expressed on a number of threads and posts about ray franz being "great or what".
if bill bowen is simply trying to make "peace", we are left to feel that we should just dismiss any statements that were made by "silentlambs" and let bygones be bygones.
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kelsey007
The way I see it is that Mr Bowen brought himself to the fore in this program. It made a public spactacle of himself. In doing so he has naturally, in a free society, opened himself up to critism. Unfortunately for the abuse victims that whom he claims to work for, he has stated some very inapropriate things - whether true or not. Now his pride seems to be keeping him from just saying - I am sorry for stating the things I stated about Mr Franz in such a public forum. Sadly to me this is complacated due to the fact that all know that Mr Franz does not visit these boards. Why would a caring person whos goal is to aid abuse victims expend any energy posting any negatives about anyone in a public forum? What was the gain? Whether Mr Bowens accusations were true or not is to me not the issue. The issue is rather why would a good person do such a thing? Why would one take private conversations with anyone and make them public? Does not that betray a trust? Certainly one would be skeptical about pouring ones heart out to anyone that does such a thing. My mom writes me a letter and I post it for all to read???? This is the problem I have with all this. This makes me question the integrity of the person. If I were Ray Franz I would question the intent of any call I received from this individual for fear that my words would end up in a public venue. Did Mr Bowen ask Mr Franz or inform Mr Franz beforehand that his intent was to quote him in a public media? Even reporters are respectful enough to ask the person they are interviewing if they can be quoted before quoting them. I honestly think that this is the issue more so than bill is right or ray is right. The wrong was the posting of any part of the conversation without persmission of the person being quoted.
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Is it possible....
by kelsey007 infor an ex-jw to go through life without thinking of themselves or referring to themselves as an ex-jw?
how many ex-buddist do you know?
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kelsey007
kelsey_graham2000
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Is it possible....
by kelsey007 infor an ex-jw to go through life without thinking of themselves or referring to themselves as an ex-jw?
how many ex-buddist do you know?
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kelsey007
yes I yahoo
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Is it possible....
by kelsey007 infor an ex-jw to go through life without thinking of themselves or referring to themselves as an ex-jw?
how many ex-buddist do you know?
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kelsey007
For an ex-jw to go through life without thinking of themselves or referring to themselves as an ex-jw? How many ex-buddist do you know?
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Stop Taking Bill's or Ray's Side!
by Derrick ingsark wrote:.
if they hold ray franz responsible in some way then i am on their side one hundred percent.. .
the very implication behind this comment is chilling to me.
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kelsey007
Can I take sides with ozzie?
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How was your first Christmas?
by dazedgrl ini've been doing a lot of thinking about christmas with it coming up so quickly.
its a little overwhelming rethinking your whole belief system.
how many of you celebrate?
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kelsey007
Not calling myself a christian and doubting the jesus story christmas was never a big issue to me. I never really liked to wait till a holiday to give a gift or share my love with someone. I do like the lights and colors but hate the crowds and hate to feel compelled to buy gifts. I much rather enjoy spontanious gifts when they are unexpected and hugs of those I care about each time I see them. In fact I have been out of the org for a very long time and have yet to go to a christmas party- bah humbug- I rather prefer halloween- that is when I can go out in the natural- no mask needed here HA HA!