Posts by Myxomatosis

3

I Couldn't Take Heaven Away...

by OHappyDay in

i have a real problem when i meet people who are sure they are going to heaven.

the problem being that i have no authority to talk them out of it.

according to the new testament, only "the spirit" can determine who goes to heaven, not me nor any organization of men.. we say that only 144,000 go to heaven, but the bible does not say that.

Myxomatosis

Hi happyday,

Nice to meet you then, are you new to the forum as well?

<<<I have a real problem when I meet people who are sure they are going to heaven. The problem being that I have no authority to talk them out of it. According to the New Testament, only "the spirit" can determine who goes to heaven, not me nor any organization of men.>>>>

I have to say that when I started reading about the beliefs the WT promoted, this was nearly the most shocking thing I read, (besides,,well, everything else) because in the New Testament, you are PROMISED repeatedly that when you have FAITH in Christ you KNOW that you are going to Heaven. Saved by the Grace of G-d. That is the only test for 'righteousness' in the Bible,,,is Christ in you?

<<<<We say that only 144,000 go to heaven, but the Bible does not say that. Not even in the two verses in Revelation that mention the 144,000. Those verses nowhere say, 'these are the only ones going to heaven.'>>>

It also says that they will be VIRGINS (out of Israel,,,not 'spiritual Israel' but from the Jewish people themselves) and that they are 'blameless, no lie was found in their mouth'....does this describe the anointed of the WT? (well, possibly the virgin bit...) having the name of G-d and His Son on their forehead.

Anyways, since it is pertinent to use hermeneutics with Biblical interpretation, and since this verse does not LIMIT whatsoever those who will be in Heaven to 144k, then you look at the rest of the New Testament and discover that it says that all who have faith in Christ will go to Heaven, then it makes this an interprative impossibility. It is a purely isolated eisogetical rationalization.

btw, since this verse would contradict so many other passages if it were limiting the #, then it is something else. What most people interpret it as is that DURING the great tribulation, these 144k are again, the male Jewish virgins who are sealed and preach DURING the GT.

<<<That is an interpretation Witnesses make. But I couldn't take heaven away from anyone, merely based on an assumption.>>>

You're not taking Heaven away from anyone, to change this would be GIVING the truth to them that if their faith was in Christ they ARE going to Heaven, whether they think so or not, if they believe in the one G-d sent, their spirit will be in Heaven when they die. 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise' Jesus said this as you know to the theif on the cross.

It's not only an assumption, it's absolutely false and disturbing. Especially when you read about the fact that the people proclaim themselves to be anointed,,,huh? So that means that G-d Himself anointed you and then let you know about it by Fed-Ex or something? It also plays into the organization's 'you have to be part of this organization' because they are the only one's teaching that. Soooo...

<<<Nor are we in any position to say who the 144,000 are. Only God knows that. He is under no more obligation to accept our "anointed" than He is to accept anyone else's "anointed." If Christendom's millions are not anointed, what proof do we have that ours are?>>>

Very true. First off, the JW's are particular in this doctrine, although, there are other cultish teachings elsewhere that are similar. I don't understand the 'anointed' because it is not about BEING anointed, it is about having faith in Christ, by that you're iniquities are covered by His blood, you are healed of your wounds. :)

<<<This whole teaching of only 144,000 going to heaven is one of our weakest links. It cannot be proven by the Scriptures.>>>

one of OUR? are you a practicing Witness then?

Indeed it is.

None of their doctrines are Biblical. They're simply Russical.
If you ARE a practicing witness, then it's good you're here :)

love

Myxomatosis

*phew for a minute there, I lost myself*

57

"Do JW's and Born-Again Christians have something in common?

by jads in

jw
friends

this might be funny to some people but i really feel that the reason that jw's and born again christians hate each other so much is because they are so much alike.

they see themselves in each other.

i have been on both sides of the spectum and believe me all of the born-agains that post on this site are more like jw's then they want to admit to themselves.

Myxomatosis

Danny boy,

Myxo,

<<<I think you better give that statement a second thought.

Almost all of the entire western hemisphere's population is in fact 'christian' due to the preaching (missionary) work of one particular church.>>>

Danny, I think you misunderstood, I didn't say Christians did not preach, obviously they do. I was showing that what is preached is phenomenally different. Did you think Christians preached 1914, a heavenly and earthly class, an ORGANIZATION, or an invisible presence of Christ then? I wasn't aware of this :)

<<<<Not to mention if you can get any of the adherents to 'christian religions' to admit openly(that is difficult esp for jw's) that they do in fact believe that they will not receive 'paradise', heaven, a thrown, from their god.......UNLESS they follow the rules of their selected faith.>>>>

ummmmm, because rules in Christianity is STRICTLY forbidden, therefore you wouldn't have rules to follow. (there's a great article about this on Freeminds somewhere,, I can't find it at the moment) The way that you stated it is that if you don't do certain 'works' you don't REALLY think you are saved. As a Christian I would have to say that is absolutely absurd, perhaps you don't know as much about Christianity as you suppose. It's interesting that you should say that, because in talking openly to a JW, I was arguing the VERY Christian position that THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO.. and you know what? He scoffed and said, 'oh, ok, so let's just sit on our arses and do nothing'

(*by the way, JW's are not a Christian religion by any stretch of the imagination. it's all milk and water)

Here is the conversation which was quite awhile ago, which I saved. You can judge for yourself how alike the Christian and JW position is alike from a conversation between myself and one (with regard to doing works) (no, I did not make this up) I think perhaps instead of telling you NO, and you telling me that I'm 'just not admitting it' this will have to be my proof, since it was between myself and a JW quite a long time ago actually.

JW: and how then in MAtt 24:14 supposed to be fulfilled on that basis? 'Faith without works is dead' as it says in James

ME: Alright, that's a good point, but there are far many more passages in the bible that speak of salvation by Grace through Faith

JW: so you just ignore the ones that talk about preaching to people?

*****JW: nowhere does it talk about grace through faith alone. nowhere*****

ME: Ok, if you want me to look up the exact verses, ermmm,,, i'm very slow, it'll take time

ME: not at all ignore the ones about preaching to people

JW1: i know the verses you are going to quote, all the born again christians quote the same ones so dont bother

JW: ive been there

JW: done that

JW: and theres no point

JW: you annot and will not accept the need to get up and do something
JW: like witness to people

*Myx: in other words, I don't believe there are RULES to be followed, WORKS to be done in order to be saved. Neither do any Christians for the most part.*

ME: ok, as for the verse that says salvation by Grace through Faith, ::::::Ephesians 2:5 It is by Grace that you have been saved, and that not of yourself, it is a gift from God, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST

JW: yes thats talking about Jehovahs mercy, check the original greek

JW: and when you read the original greek you find paul was saying that this mercy is a gift from JAh so none of us should boast about our own works

JW: now explain the scipture in James that says faith without workds is dead
JW: how do you get round that?

JW: then tally it up with Matt 24:13- he that has endured to the END is the one that shall be saved. how do you explina that?

JW: and the end hasnt arrived yet

ME: alright, : Salvation from God's wrath, which we incurred by our sinfulness, and establishes the necessity of faith in Christ as the only means of being made right with God, not from yourselves, no human effort can contribute to our salvation, it is a gift from God, one cannot earn salvation by observing the law: Romans 3:20, 28, such a legalistic approach to salvation is consistently condemned in the scripture

*******JW: absolute crap******* (Myx: ABSOLUTE CRAP, oh, very much alike)

ME: I don't have to explain anything, the bible says it again, over and over .....Grace, grace grace grace grace grace, freely given

jonnytriphers: *fred answer me this, do you believe you have to WORK (do works) for Salvation??

JW: i believe you have to work for salvation yes. I believe God loves us and if we accept knowledge and do what he requires of us we will be saved at the END of this system of things

*Myx: this is at a point when he decided I was from the devil, and it wasn't safe to keep contact with me anymore, I called him a coward*

JW: really? you think its cowardly. yet im the one who drags my arse out to preach to strangers about the good news

JW: what do you do?

JW: oh you sit and say youve been saved

*Myx: there you go, I won't 'admit' to the need for rules, because I DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT, further, THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT TEACH IT, they teach that Salvation is FREE*

JW: how convenient

ME: Oh, good for you *fred, and wow, it's so nice to see that your not self righteous whatsoever about it

JW: you were the one calling me cowardly

ME: THERE ARE NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT EVEN ONE

JW: i was defending myself

ME: we are the all singing, all dancing crap of the world

JW: lol

JW: so lets just all sit on our arses then yey

JW: why bother

ME: Ok, it's obvious, that you are clearly superior to me because of your door to door work

JW: well its obvious one of us is doing the right thing

JW: you believe its you

JW: i believe its me

ME: no, i never said i was doing anything!!

ME: I said I believe that CHRIST did EVERYTHING for me!!!!

ME: I'm not going to take any fucking glory for myself

ME: i've done nothing

*Myx: to which he found 'scary' that a Christian literally can do NOTHING in order to EARN salvation. And by the way, after that he didn't speak to me for months. Very similar is it?

Danny: That is a commonality of the majority of all religions on earth. Not so easy to dismiss this reality.

Myx: sadly it is, good thing to look for and if you see it, avoid that certain group.

Good try tho Myxo.

*Myx: Good try Danny

Myxomatosis

57

"Do JW's and Born-Again Christians have something in common?

by jads in

jw
friends

this might be funny to some people but i really feel that the reason that jw's and born again christians hate each other so much is because they are so much alike.

they see themselves in each other.

i have been on both sides of the spectum and believe me all of the born-agains that post on this site are more like jw's then they want to admit to themselves.

Myxomatosis

<<<<This might be funny to some people but I really feel that the reason that JW's and Born Again Christians hate each other so much is because they are so much alike. They see themselves in each other. I have been on both sides of the spectum and believe me all of the Born-Agains that post on this site are more like JW's then they want to admit to themselves. What do you think?>>>>

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! *deep breath ok*

I don't know, I don't really think so, unless it is by the fact we defend creation/ G-d. (not the God of the WT) the difference for me is my belief is not in any organization to be J***vah's flow of truth for men. Can you explain perhaps, I have been surprised with one person on this board, in the manner they behaved, oh well, I'm not gonna tell how he should.

I can see how perhaps some of the attitudes of Christians (esp. Catholics IMO) tend to be a bit judgemental.
For example, I had my nose pierced awhile back (only reason I took it out was cos of infection) and my Aunt who is Catholic very passive aggresively told me that sort of thing had 'negative connotations' ,,,,SO?? I argued with her that it didn't matter naturally, it had nothing to do with who I was, just really liked it. I agree, some are really twatty, but I have to assume since they're really over the top sometimes, that they would be really twatty regardless if they were Christian or not. They're judgemental people in ever group, whether they be 'religious' or not. I find the sentiment regarded towards Christians as judgemental to the extreme that it is just pure seething hostility at times.

btw, the WT policy on proper presentation in your attire and beards just makes me think of Jesus' words "Outside they are white washed tombs, but inside they are full of dead man's bones" eeeek. I especially thought that after a JW on another board listed that proudly when speaking of the door to door 'they know when our clean shaven, well dressed boys show up on their doorstep, blah blah blah' likening the appearence as a testimony to their obvious 'cleanliness' of the spirit, basically she believed it was of great importance, and proved some sort of righteousness, and trustworthiness to them, like if you were not dressed 'right' or shaven 'right' you would not be adequate to preach or something. UGGGGGGH!!! I detest that esp. The whole thing about outward appearance with some Christians just gets my goat, especially when I see those bikers with all the tattoos, bandanas, long beards and the like going around the country preaching CHRIST. Now THAT's the way to do it.

Personally, I didn't know that the JW's HATED Christians, I don't hate JW's, and the reason I find the organisation itself repulsive is because of the lies deceit, control, false prophecy, the utterly deceptive treatment of the Early Church Fathers, the utterly deceptive straw man arguments, straw man issues, and straw man morality (creating a 'Great Babylon' out of straw man issues, then proudly saying that they have 'gotten out of her' 'heard the call'), the self-righteousness pompous nonsense I read in all WT quotes about itself. NOT because they manifest qualities prevelant in Christianity. I would pat them on the back if one of them would go talk to their mom whose been disfellowshipped, and hasn't been allowed to see her grandchildren. I know there has been lies, etc. in the history of Christianity too, so please don't cleverly bring that *to my attention*

I would just like to say that I think people who are passionate about things will also be outspoken with it. For example, the protestors to the War, you may disagree, you may find it annoying, but if you are against the war, you will find the arguments in support of the war annoying. It is entirely opposite, but the reaction to the other side is similar. If Christians are outspoken and passionate about things and you disagree, there is a high degree of possibility of you rolling your eyes, getting tense and perhaps even screaming at the television set. If you are a passionate JW you will find many people find you annoying. There again, similar reactions, different messages entirely. Putting everyone who such and such find annoying in the same boat and then saying they dislike eachother because they're both so annoying, and they recognise that in one another??? lol, no, it has more to do with the issues war/anti war I do believe.

It would be easier to examine the big differences between that which Christians believe (in the way of behaviours, rules, mentality)

1. The WT are AUTHORITARIAN, that is, they dictate 'morality' and 'behaviour' that which you are supposed to do, and that which you are not. This is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN in the Scriptures. You are not to impose what YOU PRACTICE *which is a non issue in Scriptures* to be right in your own conscience, such as in issues that should be a matter of conscience in the WT (BLOOD, DOOR TO DOOR, READING OTHER RELIGIOUS LITERATURE, the PROPER FOREPLAY WITH YOUR MARRIED PARTNER???!!!!, CELEBRATING HOLIDAYS, SALUTING THE FLAG, MILITARY SERVICE, basically anything that you can say 'well I do it this way, and it is the RIGHT way to do it, so therefore, if you wish to do things RIGHT, you will do it MY WAY) sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. Which some denominations are guilty, but you will not lose your only hope for a 'new earth' and not being destroyed at Harmageddon for leaving, if you don't like it, find another Church. The thing is that certain people feel the need to do certain things, and some Churches are more likely to do these things than others (baptists-tithing) you don't stay if you disagree with the *extras*

2. Christians are NOT TOLD (in large part) WHOM is 'best' to associate with and who it is 'better' to avoid. They are not told WHAT TO READ in regard to literature, they are actually encouraged to read critical literature, esp. for study purposes.

3. Christians ARE NOT required to attend any sort of Church, denomination (except in some like Catholic) and if they do choose to, they are not 'encouraged' and their 'spiritual well-being' is not questioned if they DO NOT attend for such and such amount of days a week/month, it is entirely their choice. For me, I don't go to church :) They are not questioned 'how do you feel about J***vah's org.' because they hold that all with faith in Christ are part of the Church, the Bride of Christ.

Furthermore,

THEY DO NOT SHUN PEOPLE for disobeying MEANINGLESS AUTHORITARIAN RULES

ESPECIALLY IF THAT PERSON SIMPLY IS QUESTIONING CHRISTIANITY. i.e. thinking normally in the course of most anyone with any faith.

They can leave without being shunned. The thing is that it is up to the individual, if the person in question has sincerely offended an individual by an ACTUAL SIN, then they can avoid them if they choose, usually no families are torn apart. (actually, since I don't attend church I'm really not sure, I am absolutely positive it is NOTHING at all like the policy of the WT, and there will be no reprecussions to a person for speaking with someone who has gone into 'disbelief') naturally. Too different from the WT to be of any consequence in the realm of similarity.

I've questioned the object plenty *naturally, because I read CRITICAL literature* of Christianity, Who is Christ, not SIMPLY an organization, but the Person Himself.

Big point here, for me personally, reading the information control of the WT was frightening to the extreme. Also their absolute obsession with Satan being out to get them (for some) is utterly disproportionate to his role in the Bible. I don't know any Christian who absolutely refuses to see criticism of past decisions within the Christian community, actually, it is mostly unavoidable, since it is recorded in secular history *somewhat* due to the fact of no separation between Church and state (bad idea)
I know of no such thing for Christians in general.

I was addressing this first off because the gulf to me being a Christian, and reading the stories on here from life as a JW, are absolutely enormous.

I think perhaps the thing that you found alike between the two is the ..... I really can't think of it.

preaching????

similar the ACT yes, similar what is PREACHED NO! Christians don't preach an organization, 1914, classes of salvation, or annihilation of everyone not in a VISIBLE organization, nor an INVISIBLE (heretical) presence of CHRIST. ummmm, yeah.

With regards to other things, the whole obsession with uniformity within the WT is so absurd, there is another BIG dissimilarity between the two (you are allowed to disagree about things, such as again, anything with concern to LAWS of your LIFE) Of course I realise this is one of the major reasons the JW use (as far as I can tell) to say they are the only 'true religion' ...sadly their CONFORMITY resulting in uniformity only proves that they are a true cult. It's slightly different than everyone just NOT doing certain things (holidays, flag, military) and DOING certain things. and agreeing that they are good/bad. black/white.

with regard to zeal? sure, there's lots of Christians who are zealous, not because of impending perfect earth, or because they're required to have a certain amount of zeal i think, but for reasons more pertaining to having found someone, and wanting to share HIM, not it. errm, as for annoying? ooooooohh, boo boo kitty f*ck I find the snotty condescending way that a believer on this board is sometimes treated annoying and just really sickening.

Anyways, I've had my say, sorry to get a bit off topic at times. I do have to in general disagree.

As to the original question, again, no, it is not because I can 'see myself in them' that I dislike what they're doing. lol.

*yesterday I woke up sucking a lemon*

50

Can God exist outside of time

by setfreefinally in

.

some say god exists outside of time and space therefore he can predict the future.. any comments?

Myxomatosis

Hello Alan

Alan: Actually it sheds light on why I never liked C.S. Lewis: he's a terrible thinker.>>>>

Ok you're opinion. Have you read many of his books then? (And, btw, that is a post that was directed to a practicing JW, hence why I said that)

<<<<If God can 'simultaneously' 'see' everything that has ever happened in history or ever will, then history is static, therefore cannot change, therefore everything is fixed "aforetime", therefore there is no free will.>>>

errrrrr.....how so for us ickle homo sapiens down here on planet earth? I disagree, you would have to be a bit more thorough in the explanation if you don't mind. I do not believe FREE WILL is not an issue in this, because G-D can see it doesn't mean that He INTERFERES with our Free will. there is no absolute time for those A PART of the UNIVERSE, influenced and subject to this dimension.

<<<<I also understand that Christians in general hate these ideas, but that simply illustrates that many Christian notions -- whether they come from the Bible or not -- are quite illogical and even unreasonable.>>>> *ok Spok*

rrrrrright. ugh. Really, Christians in GENERAL probably don't really THINK about these ideas. There's over a billion, maybe you and I shouldn't speculate on which *ideas* in general Christians do or do not hate?

'Illustrates that many Christian notions',,,, SUCH AS?

Myxomatosis

19

Alright, Now I am Pissed!

by kproscts in

jw
friends

i just got off the phone with my mom; i love her now more than i did as a kid.

i have over the years briefly brought up my "doubts" about the teaching and she quickly dismissed what i was saying and said it was not for her to hear and that she believed in jehovah to set all things right.

so since i have made a point to "pacify" her talks when it came to the jws, recently as some of you know i found this site and in addition to what i learned my understanding of the jws and their secrets are even better known.

Myxomatosis

**well I AM doing something.... and so far I am doing it alone... if your interested... or anyone else... contact me via-inbox....

badolputtytat***

how do I contact you via-inbox? sorry, new, not too good at navigating the site at the moment. I'm very interested.

Myxomatosis

50

Can God exist outside of time

by setfreefinally in

.

some say god exists outside of time and space therefore he can predict the future.. any comments?

Myxomatosis

Hello all,

This is a great topic! I had the opportunity to already address this with (surprise) a JW I was talking with, who found it laughable when I said that 'there is no 'time' in Heaven' and that G-d is not influenced by it. You all seem to have a very good idea about it, here is our little discussion that may be helpful, and a bit by C.S. Lewis that rather explains it well. The idea that space/time is FINITE and had a beginning was first identified by Theologians, only recently have scientists been exploring this idea. (not to do w/ G-d, but just the fact that space/time does not exist outside the universe. It's quite interesting what the JW says about time, as you will see, in the respect that he's thirty years my senior.

BTW, the fact that G-d is Omniscient does not interfere with free will. Obviously.

I apologize for the length, I wanted to be thorough.

Chap said: <<<If God is omnipresent as is alluded to in the Bible, he exists at every place at every time. If this is true, God does not have to exist outside of time. If a time is viewed like a place and vice-versa, and there is infinity, there is no such thing is outside of time. Time is then part of infinity just like place is. If God is infinite, can he exist outside of himself?>>>>

Time is neither infinite, nor space.

Hi JW

Myx: there is no time in Heaven

JW: LOL! Myx: You weren't aware of this?

JW: Time is alot of things. But mostly it is a unit of measurement.>>>

Myx:mmm, how do you figure? There is no absolute time. (theory of relativity)

Myx: Listen to this,,,

St. Augustine (A.D. 354-430) said way back when

"When asked 'What did God do before he created the Universe?
He said that 'Time WAS A PROPERTY OF THE UNIVERSE THAT G-D CREATED, AND THAT TIME DID NOT EXIST BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE'

Myx: Now, hold on, (before you reply saying 'that's his opinion) this man was a Christian, and He made this fantastic statement,,,only to be proven absolutely entirely correct with Science, by the likes of Stephen Hawking, as I will briefly demonstrate.

Myx: I'm sorry, but time is mass times exceleration,, there is no 'time'(as we know it) in Heaven, lol,,, do you think it is Thursday May 29th for God too?

This is a simple matter of Science.

G-d created the Universe, YES?

Here's a little explanation of why I say that 'time' is created, from
'A brief History of Time' by Stephen Hawking

"Before 1915, space and time were though of as a fixed arena in which events took place, but which was not affected by what happened in it. This was true even of the special theory of relativity. Bodies moved, forces attracted and repelled, but time and space simply continued, unaffected. It was natural to think that space and time went on forever.

The situation, however, is quite different in the general theory of relativity (Myx: y'know? Einstein? E=mc [squared]) Space and time are now dynamic quantities: when a body moves, or a force acts, it affects the curvature of space and time--and in turn the structur of space-time affects the way in which bodies move and forces act. Space and time not only affect but also are affected by everything that happens in the universe. Just as one cannot talk about events in the universe without the notions of space and time, so in general relativity it became meaningless to talk about space and TIME OUTSIDE THE LIMITS OF THE UNIVERSE.

In the following decades this new understanding of space and time was to revolutionize our view of the universe. The old idea of an essentially unchanging universe that could have existed, and could continue to exist, forever was replaced by the notion of a dynamic, expanding universe that seemed to have begun a finite time ago, and that might end at a finite time in the future. That revolution formst he subject of the next chapter. And years later, it was also to be the starting point for my work in theoretical physics. Roger Penrose and I showed that Einstein's general theory of relativity implied the Universe (SPACE AND TIME) MUST HAVE A BEGINNING, and possibly an end."

JW: Time is the rate at which things change,[ ie. grow old, decay, break down ].

Myx: no that is not time. That is what happens IN TIME, but it is not TIME

JW: Time is also the distance between events, Measured in years, months, hours

Myx:.Hmmmm,,,that would mean that time is absolute, which it isn't that opinion goes against the theory of relativity. I know that isn't a very thorough explanation, just ask if you want me to explain what I mean. (by the way, all you said about time proves nothing in the way of it being 'eternal' or 'infinite', it's just some of your thoughts about it, which is fine, but you really shouldn't write off what a person is saying based on your basic understanding)

JW:Time like God himself, has no beginning and no end. It stretches infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future.>

Myx: and your proof is? wrong! completely separate, that would be an oxymoron. Are you a pantheist? G-d is not part of His creation. He is not a 'part' of the Universe(yes, I know he is EVERYWHERE, but not limited as this would be doing). Time is finite, created, not absolute, G-d is Infinite, Eternal, Absolute. Hmmm, not much of a resemblance that I can see.(G-d: being outside the World in Hebrew)

JW: There was a time when the Son became "the only begotten Son".<wrong> Wrong wrong wrong wrong, this is one of the remarkable things about the Hebrew concept of 'eternity' because before modern times, people had no idea about the 'time' and 'space' being dynamic quantities. But, when 'eternity' is used, it is so incredibly expressive of something that is 'timeless' 'is and was and forever' also, that when Jesus says he was with the Father before the Universe began, and He created it, and scriptures say that He is begotten, there is NO WAY that a person can say that there was a 'time' when he was 'begotten' because G-d is not in 'time' He created the Universe, as you saw, time DID NOT EXIST before the Universe.

Maybe from a Christian the idea of 'time' being separate from G-d will help

From 'Mere Christianity' C.S. Lewis

TIME AND BEYOND TIME

"In the last chapter I had to touch on the subject of prayer, and while that is still fresh in your mind and my own, I should like to deal with a difficulty that some people find about the whole idea of prayer. A man put it to me by saying 'I can believe in God all right, but what I cannot swallow is the idea of Him attending to several hundred million human beings who are all addressing Him at the same moment.' And I have found that quite a lot of people feel this.

Now, the first thing to notice is the whole sting of it comes in the words 'at the same moment.' Most of us can imagine God attending to any number of applicants if only they came one by one and He had an endless time to do it in. So what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God having to fit too many things into one moment of time.

Well that is of course what happens to us. Our life comes to us moment by moment. One moment disappears before the next comes along: and there is room for very little in each. That is what Time is like. And of course you and I tend to take it for granted that this Time sereis--this arrangement of past, present and future--is not simply the way life comes to us but the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from past to future just as we do. But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all: later the Philosophers took it over: and now some of the scientist are doing the same.

Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten thirty--and every other moment from the beginning of the world--is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.

That is difficult, I know. Let me try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I am writing a novel. I write 'Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!' For Mary who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary's maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as long as I pleased, and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary's time (the time inside the story) at all.

This is not a perfect illustration, of course. But it may give just a glimpse of what I believe to be the truth. God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created. When Christ died, He died for you individually just as much as if you had been the only man in the world.

The way in which my illustration breaks down is this. In it the author gets out of one Time-series (that of the novel) only by going into another Time-series(the real one.) But God, I believe, does not live in a time series at all. (**Myx: check it out! brilliant! C.S. had it all thought out years before Stephen Hawkings wrote 'A Brief History of Time' (1940-50) that's why he here says 'I believe' because it really only made sense) His life is not dribbled out moment by moment like ours: with Him it is, so to speak, still 1920 and already 1960. For His life is Himself.

If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

The idea is worth trying to grasp because it removes some apparent difficulties in Christianity. Before I became a Christian (**Myx: He was an atheist til 30 or so I believe,, converted partly by the effort of none other than J.R.R. Tolkein) one of my objections was as follows. The Christians said that the eternal God who is everywhere and keeps the whole universe going, once became a human being. Well, then, said I, how did the whole universe keep going while He was a baby, or while He was asleep? How could He at the same time be God who knows everything and also a man asking his disciples 'Who touched me?' You will notice that the sting lay in the 'time' words: 'WHILE He was a baby' ---How could He AT THE SAME TIME?' In other words I was assuming that Christ's life as God was in time, and that His life as the man Jesus in Palestine was a shorter period taken from that time--just as my service in the army was a shorter period taken out of my total life. And that is how most of us perhaps tend to think about it. We picture God living through a perios when His human life was still in the future: then coming to a perios when it was present: then going on to a perios when He could look back on it as something in the past. But probably these ideas correspond to nothing in the actual facts. You cannot fit Christ's earthly life in Palestine into any tim-relations whith His life as God beyond all space and time. It is really, I suggest, a timeless truth about God that human nature, and the human experience of weakness and sleep and ignorance, are somehow included in His whole divine life. This human life in God is from our point of view a particular period in the history of our world (from the year A.D. one till the Crucifixion). We therefore imagine it is also a perios in the history of God's own existence. But God has no history. He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it has already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is tstill in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone before you can speak about it. God forbid we should think God was like that. Even we may hope not to be always rationed in that way.

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God FORESAW our acts, it would not be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call 'tomorrow' is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call 'today'. All the days are 'Now' for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not 'foresee' you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that you actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--- because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already 'Now' for Him."

**Myx:: whhhooooo Yep I typed all that up. Were there any spelling mistakes? I never check.

2 Peter 1:19

"Above all, you must understand that no prephecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke form God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

I hope this sheds some new light on the 100% accuracy of a prophecy from God.

Myxamatosis

booyakasha

9

The Silliness of "Neutrality' and "Pagan Customs"

by metatron in

the watchtower engages in commerce, sells stock thru brokerages, trains or retains lawyers, uses 'blame the victim'.

tactics in court, protests to various governments, seeks tax exemptions, holds millions of dollars in banks and .

constantly fends off lawsuits in legal actions.. yet, somehow they are "no part of the world" ??????.

Myxomatosis

Metatron,

Ahem.

I TOTALLY agree!

It's so funny to see them call the celebration of Christmas the sun worship of the Roman Saturnalia, or whatever. Which is ACTUALLY, just as putting the pillars from the holiest pagan temple in the first Christian Church of Rome as a symbol of the DEFEAT of paganism by Christianity, so is the celebration of the SON, as opposed to the SUN purposely placed in reminder of the DEFEAT over pagan customs on the Winter solstice. This is so absurd to be laughable, and using Jeremiah wotever that talks about people who use trees to make IDOLS they then WORSHIP, and then saying that God HATES CHRISTMAS TREES???? LOLOLOLOL!! Actually, if they weren't so poor with their research, they'd know it was MARTIN LUTHER who started the tradition of Christmas trees, after he saw it sparkling with the winter snow outside, and thought it would be a lovely addition to the celebration. Actually, the FDS probably does know that, just doesn't fly with their propoganda. *sigh*

I was thinking today also as I drove by this Church today with a big 'ole Cross standing prominently in the front lawn, how probably to Jehovah's Witness, that is just like having the Wings of Ra outside or something. It's definitley for a reason they (the GB, FDS) do those things, really a matter of psychology.

With the cross I think, though, they were a little overzealous, in cleaning out all the 'paganism' from their holey society. It's sort of a giveaway that they're just trying to set themselves apart, whether what they do is historically correct or not. It's quite humorous that they translate it 'torture stake' and condemning the cross as a pagan symbol. There is NO question that it was (and prob. is) a pagan symbol....there is also NO question that it was a HISTORICAL Roman punishment of the day. It doesn't matter that the cross is a pagan symbol, that does not mean that Jesus did not die on it. I wonder what they have to say about Peter insisting that he be crucified upside down, why many Jewish ossuaries and tombs, which usually record the type of death, are engraved with crucifixes. Perhaps the word 'stauros' could be just a stake, but trying to card the Christians for holding reverence to simply a pagan symbol is not only ignorant, but insulting. It's just proof that they don't care whether it is incorrect, just as long as it suits their theology, and further pushes upon the R&F that they truly are the 'pure religion' and they've headed the cry to 'get out of Babylon' hmmm......

<<<<<Such things are an effective DISTRACTION. They enable Witnesses to look at themselves as righteous - while "they

consider[ed] the rest as nothing" - doomed to Armageddon. They encourage the pitiful attitude of most JW's in ignoring

charity and simple brotherhood - while imagining themselves as the Favored of God - in-between swallowing>>>>>

Very Well Put!

It's like every little issue that can be addressed and wrote off as being 'pagan' has been imbedded in the conscience, so, it doesn't matter WHAT a Church with a cross, or a family who celebrates Christmas and Easter, or people that salute the flag, have to say, you can automatically mark them off as being 'part of the world' and 'spiritually blind'. It takes all thought and objectivity out of sorting things out for yourself. It's certainly like discrimination, you see a person with a tattoo or piercing,,, you automatically know they do drugs, that kind of thing. You label everything, put everything and in a box and form a cliche attitude, and you've effectively sorted everyone out into the 'clean' and 'dirty'. Then you ask the question, who that is clean would want to associate with the one that is dirty, or some such nonsense, and booyakasha, you've just effectively established in that person's mind that all those who don't have behaviors 'a, b, c' and who participate wrongly in 'd, e, f' are unfit company for the cleansed, spiritual brother, and also that they are part of a false religion, who don't REALLY follow the Scriptures, while they are the only ones TRULY doing everything Scripturally 'right' following all the 'instructions' to perfection. How many people do you know WORSHIP the flag, how many people do you know WORSHIP a person on their birthday? And why are they allowed wedding bands at their wedding, as this is a PAGAN symbol of devotion, used in PAGAN marriage ceremonies??????

well, there's my too scents

Not the best description, I know, it's kind of difficult for a non-psychologist to put into coherent terms...:)

Myxomatosis

*cigarettes and chocolate milk*

9

The Silliness of "Neutrality' and "Pagan Customs"

by metatron in

the watchtower engages in commerce, sells stock thru brokerages, trains or retains lawyers, uses 'blame the victim'.

tactics in court, protests to various governments, seeks tax exemptions, holds millions of dollars in banks and .

constantly fends off lawsuits in legal actions.. yet, somehow they are "no part of the world" ??????.

Myxomatosis

7

I'm guessing this is a lie.....

by Myxomatosis in

i need some input on this...this is from another mb i'm a member, and it is a discussion about salvation between a born-again jew, and a jehovah's witness.

the jehovah's witness i believe is being utterly deceptive about what is actually taught in the watchtower publications and kingdom halls, or is secondary to that of being a member of 'jehovah's organization' what do y'all think?

do you think this would fly if he were say on a mb simply of jehovah's witnesses or the kingdom hall?

Myxomatosis

Hello SF,

First off, Star Scream, thanks a bunch! That was very helpful indeed. purrrdy much confirmed what I suspected.

SF: rabbitdisease (Myxomatosis) is Jesse Glick (JG).????????

LMFAO WHAT????? ohp, you caught me! man really thought I could get away with that *boggles wildly*

SF: These two JW KLOWNS are all over the search engines.>>

ROFLMFAO

you have to be shitting me??? Actually, I have NEVER been a JW, I've only READ extensively about the WT, and I was asking THE EX-JW, because I want to know if it is REALLY said, since the Witnesses say there is so much false information out there or whatever. because I'm DEBATING Jw's, and I wanted to check out from people who have ACTUALLY BEEN ONE if what he's saying is a lie.

I dunno who Jesse Glick is, but as I have posted in other threads before this one, I am a CHRISTIAN, have NEVER been a Jehovah's Witness, and I feel absurd having to defend myself.

I'm on a search engine, btw??? That would be cool! You know, there ARE other people who could take on the name 'Myxomatosis'

that's all

Myxomatosis

3

'us' against 'them' mindset

by Myxomatosis in

jw
friends

i'm really curious as to what sort of verbal or otherwise abuse, if any, that everyone received as a jw.

did you get teased at all, threatened, shouted at, any damage to your physical property, leaflets left on the windshield, anything like that?

i ask because after reading this bit from steve hassan's book, and was already rather aware of this through my own personal experience, but what did that make you think about your beliefs?

Myxomatosis

Hi everyone,

I'm really curious as to what sort of verbal or otherwise abuse, if any, that everyone received as a JW.

Did you get teased at all, threatened, shouted at, any damage to your physical property, leaflets left on the windshield, anything like that?

I ask because after reading this bit from Steve Hassan's book, and was already rather aware of this through my own personal experience, but what did that make you think about your beliefs? Were you told or did you believe that any attacks on you or your beliefs were from 'Satan' trying to get you from the 'truth'? In 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' Steve mentions that while he was a
'moonie' he thought any organised or personal attack on the Unification churches beliefs, or claims, or members, only made them MORE convinced that they were the 'only true religion'....was it the same way for you? Before you left, and before you started to actually question, did you believe that literally anything critical of the Watch Tower, or any personal attacks on your beliefs, or teasing as a result, was caused by Satan and further proof that you indeed part of 'Jehovah's organization' the 'only true religion'?????

Also, that is something I've just been told by a current JW, she says that she gets alot of crap for being a JW, but she 'knows it's all from Satan....'
*rolls eyes*

Have they ever considered the possibility that people attack things that are BAD, where in any sort of situation can you find people only getting aggressive ONLY when it is GOOD? And for the most part, anyone it seems trying to get through to somebody who is not open or questioning themself, is really not possible, and terribly frustrating, hence, people get a bit angry, and react more forcefully perhaps. Especially since most current dubs, won't hear, think or see and examine [accusations] to see if they're valid, which is rather ironic when you think it is mostly directly from historical WT publications. I would say that anyone who has read a dime about the WT history probably knows more than the average JW,,what do you think? Either that, or they don't try and fool themselves into thinking that it is just the 'progressive understanding' of the WT.

This site is completely amazing to me because all you guys are ex-JW's, which blows my mind after now trying to reach a number of them with no success, just utter frustration at their clone thinking, wrote responses, and refusing to read the WT own HISTORY!!!!! It's enough to make a girl go wild *no, not like that!*. You guys are awesome!

Thanks,

Myxomatosis