Posts by Frank75

22

two witness rule

by luffy in

what exactly is the two witness rule regarding the witnesses stance on child abuse?..am i right in thinking that this means that unless there are two witnesses to the child abuse, witnesses are forbidden to go to the police..surely this cannot be so twisted.

Frank75

The whole two witnesses thing is a subterfuge for convenience. The Internet is covered with examples of the lunacy of JC's, the Society's loop holes and their ridiculous reasoning's such as this one.

Lot's of people including myself have been DF'd on the mouth of one witness, or two so called witnesses to different events.

My accuser was my mother who I shared 3 or 4 WT killer bible texts with. Even though I did not elaborate other than saying, "it is pretty obvious and clear what so and so was writing/saying here" I was judged only by her version of events. When I asked the 6 men in the joke appeal meeting how they could rationalise judging someone on single witness testimony, since surely they all realized it could be done to them, they just smiled and laughed and said "we are not apostates".

Friends of ours were DF'd simply for asking about the UN fiasco. Lastly my brother was recently df'd because someone saw me at his home. The elders then combed the congregation looking for testimony or willing witnesses against him. One man came forward and said that my brother had claimed the Watchtower was a "false prophet". When he was confronted with that accusation he asked to see his accuser, which was refused him (they actually had the accuser brought to another meeting but after asking 2 preliminary questions and showing that the guy himself was critical of the WT and spreading apostate views, the man was quickly dismissed). All my brother said to this guy was "how would you respond to someone in the service who called us a false prophet?".

So obviously the rules are for convenience. They will kick anyone out that even hints of having their cult spell broken. This plugs the leak and serves to keep everyone else in line. They hide behind the 2 witness rule in cases of rape and pedophilia because they want to look the other way so as to quell the truth about its prevalence.

Frank75

51

Do you truly WANT the Watchtower to collapse? If so why?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

there are the abuses of course, the diabloical 'two witness' rule applied to allegations of molestation, the reckless 'blood ban' in all it's tortuous complexities (which by watchtowers own admission has resulted in many fatalaties) and the cruel punishment of shunning which has caused so much suffering and pain to many of us here.. is it for these reasons that you want to see the watchtower fall or is it simply that you want to see them humiliated and broken for what they've done to you?

most of us aren't bitter or selfish enough to want personal revenge against the watchtower but i'd be lying if i said i didn't sometimes think like that.. the reason for my original question is that i sometimes feel a bit hypocritical.

i try to accord respect to jw's and individuals of all faiths, (yes, even when i go off on one of my atheistic diatriabes) but whereas i allow myself to be hostile to the watchtower i shrink from being so forthright against other 'christian' faiths whose corrosive nature may not be so easily apparent but is there nonetheless.. i guess my question is; why do we want the watchtower to fall but do not wish all religion to fall?.

Frank75

Hey you guys we all need to chill!

I understand totally r6lazer's point. However I choose to do what I can to help any who are sensing something is not right. I also accept that there is little I can do unless they come to me. Otherwise, we will always be looked on with great suspicion. As we all know it is frustrating when we are labeled like that but also know the WT pours considerable time and resources into painting us into this corner.

Unlike Auld Soul, my wife who came from a very "deeply entrenched" witness family and tradition had no problem leaving with me. When I decided to leave she said she wanted to leave years ago but stayed for me. She despised the total lack of love and had been fed up for some time. I am sure that if Auld Soul plays his cards right, she will use her God given reasoning ability and her love for her husband to snap out of it. If not, there is nothing much that any of us could have done for her.

The dubs may spilt up into smaller groups, they may take on a different persona, they may drop some of the quackery, but we can all rest assured that in some way, shape or form it will be around for a long time. I wonder if a collapse is coming too, but end up pinching myself with the understanding that if and when it falls the people will either A) start up or follow another B) 10 more cults just as brain dead will take its place.

Unfortunately what r6laser said is true, most dubs allow themselves to be swept up in it. Like the people in the emperors new clothes. They have eyes to see, and a brain to think. They want it to be true so they "choose to" believe a lie.

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie,12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

The same was true with the Israelites who chose to have a king. They wanted someone to rule over them. That is exactly what they got.

I know it sounds mean to say it, but even though I don't like it, the same dynamic still exists among humans who need the identity that belonging to something gives them.

Even when I was a dub I remember people complaining about how nosy the elders were, and that they should bud out. How invariably those same people went running to the elders when they wanted help with a problem, then turn around and invited them back into their lives and then got pissed again when they wouldn't leave! The same ones would also run to the elders to snitch and tattle on others they had issues with in the congregation knowing full well what an intrusion and imposition would be put upon them. The so-called peace loving Dubs use the WT, Bible and especially the elders to war with one another and also seek revenge.

Many of us used to do the same things.

Lastly the structure provided by religion in general and the tighter structure of Cults is what some people feel that they need. That is the main reason why groups such as the dubs will continue to exist and exert influence on such people. Many of these people will likely reject freedom offered by us Apostates just as a zoo raised animal taken to the wild will many times not want to leave the safety and comfort of their cage. Preferring the cage to the unknown is not unique to captive wild animals.

Hopefully our experiences can help the precious few who want to be free to get to that freedom with their sanity still intact

Frank75

34

My JW roommate and the false religion tract

by oppgirl63 in

jw
friends

my roommate who is disabled was in the hospital for a couple of days last week (nothing too serious).

one of the 'sisters' from the hall brought her a few of the tracts to hand out while she was in the hospital (like to nurses and whoever).

she hasn't been to the meetings for a while because she hasn't been feeling well so this was the first time she had seen them.

Frank75

Dont mean to highjack the thread and get off topic concerning the tract, if you two were males the JW living with you would already have been disfellowshipped according to the policies set forth in the elder's manual; even the WTS views homosexuality between the sexes differently in this respect like most of society.
Mary - Actually no they don't. A uh "former" lesbian from my old Hall became very good friends with a woman who was in Bethel with her husband. Guess he didn't treat her very well---used to beat the holy hell out of her etc. Anyway, she and this sister were practically joined at the hip. After a couple of years, they ended up taking off in the middle of the night and moved out to Oregon, the Bethel sister leaving her husband. While she and the sister from my Hall denied that anything was going on, the elders out there found out about this sister's uh 'history' and said they could not live together. They refused to split up so they were both disfellowshipped. They eventually moved in to their own places and were reinstated, but they're still joined at the hip.

Mary:

You took my point out from under me. I guess the only difference is that if the elders were allowed to watch, it would be ok for two women to live together. LOL!

The part in the KS book is an example which chooses to pick on male Homosexuals. Arguably Homosexual actually is from Greek for same sex and not the Latin for "Man". So the point in the homophobic section in the KS book being made is that if a "brother" or sister was to spend time "behind closed doors" with a known "Homosexual" or lesbian, they would not need any proof of hanky panky but could summarily threaten to DF them. Then actually nothing could stop them.

You can bet your last buck that this paragraph in this retched book is being and has been applied with equal force to Lesbians. Whether the elders are allowed to watch or not!

Frank

42

Beards, when were they banned?

by GramblingMan in

jw
friends

i know it has been talked about before, but does anyone have information as to when jw started banning beards.

my wife is telling me that it started in the 60/70's because of the hippies, but i know i read somewhere on here that it was much earlier.. .

Frank75

i might be wrong but one of my old JW friends from Canada said that alot of his uncles had beards, and were elders, it seems to be a bit more accepted over there and in America than it is in Australia, over here i dont think ive seen anyone with a beard that is a JW, does this sound right?

I have not visited everywhere in this country, but there is a small coven of CO's as the pot in this country is shallow. Not one of them, even in the foreign language groups would permit an elder, MS or even Pioneer (even some of the sisters! LOL) to have a beard. There have been congregations that have been tolerant, but the tide usually changes sooner than later.

One congregation in Toronto that had some free thinkers in the early 70's wore beards and these silly hats. The congregation was disbanded and nearly all of those guys became elders in their new environs.

I met an Italian elder who sold his business and moved his wife who was dieing of cancer to the DR to enjoy their remaining time together. The local congregation would not allow him to comment or read at the bookstudy. Most of the congregations in that country have been strongly influenced from Canada and US so they share much of the unwritten codes. However the Italians didn't seem to mind, at least according to this man who "eldered" in Roma.

I stand to be corrected, but Beards? No way in my experience, not in Canada. They even make you stand when the prayer is said at book studies, service arrangements and even elders meetings.

Frank75

42

Beards, when were they banned?

by GramblingMan in

jw
friends

i know it has been talked about before, but does anyone have information as to when jw started banning beards.

my wife is telling me that it started in the 60/70's because of the hippies, but i know i read somewhere on here that it was much earlier.. .

Frank75

No one would ever have been disfellowshipped for not shaving his (or her!) beard. There must have been something else going on there. Beards have NEVER been a judicial matter.
They might never have been given any responsibilities or used for parts, etc., but not disfellowshipped.
S4

I know you are one of the good guys and your posts are very helpful and informative. However, after everything posted here on this forum, how could you make such a statement?

You can be DF'd for absolutely anything if the ones doing it have their justification. If the man was thought to harbor apostate views or simply threaten the status quo, they would use anything and everything in their power to throw him out.

Since they do not have to answer to anyone for the decision (even appeal committee has a mandate that extends to procedural errors only) and even other elders in the same body are not allowed to poke their noses in to the JC process, just what would stop them?

People have been df'd for "outrageous conduct" or "running with world" as a letter to elders that I have from the 70's states on the subject of what constitutes a DF'ing offense.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. With no checks and balances these buffoons can do just about whatever they want.

I admit that in rare cases rulings have been overturned and even public apologies have been made from the platform. Those are extremely rare and require someone high up on the totem pole to get it done. The widow and fatherless boy/girl haven't a chance of catching those blue moon breaks!

Frank75

16

Shining as Illuminators in The World--pdf!

by Atlantis in

the pdf file for "shining as illuminators in the world" also includes the [pages for notes] just as they appear in this 253 page book.

here are two hosting sites you can use to download the book.

the first link below will show seconds counting down under the words: [ download description: education]near the bottom of the page and the download link will appear in blue numbers and letters.

Frank75

Yeah. The links are both dead for me.

I have my own copy but it would be nice to have a pdf file on the 'puter.

Frank75

42

Beards, when were they banned?

by GramblingMan in

jw
friends

i know it has been talked about before, but does anyone have information as to when jw started banning beards.

my wife is telling me that it started in the 60/70's because of the hippies, but i know i read somewhere on here that it was much earlier.. .

Frank75

I think "Faith on the March" the memoirs, lies and half truths of AH Macmillan, or the book "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" identifies how it all started. 1 or the other or both mentions the efforts Rutherford went to in order to garner the prestige of Russell for himself. So since many of the Bethel/Branch Elite and other Organizational leaders wore beards similar to Russell, Rutherford would force them to get rid of them in order to advance, get new printing presses or get his favor. You know, the same way they get people to conform today....coercion!

This is most likely the reason why it has lingered for so long. The prohibition then filtering down through the rank and file in the grand old pyramid style customary in many cults.

Frank75

17

Anyone familiar with this Ex-JW?...

by Merry Magdalene in

curious about accusations against the iranian president for his views on the holocaust, i was doing a little research into the matter and stumbled across this character: ditlieb felderer

charged, tried, convicted and jailed in sweden.

vilified in the press.

Frank75

I am no expert on the Iranian presidents views of the Holocaust. However, I did watch him bury Morley Safer on the 60 minutes interview.

All of the propaganda aside, I had to agree somewhat slightly with his point about the compensation given the Jews as a result of the Holocaust. Namely, since it was the German Nazi's and the citizens through their compliance (ambivalence at the least) that perpetrated the atrocities against the Jews, then why did the Palestinians have to give up their land as compensation? Why isn't the Jewish state in the Rhineland or Bavaria for example?

That does not sound like the man denies the Holocaust or hates Israel, but just disagrees with how the Jews were compensated by displacing the existing inhabitants. Morley was uncustomarily speechless so the reasoning even got to him.

Frank75

38

Words That Are Not In The Bible

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

i'd like to compile a list for my next blog, but i would love some help.

they can refer to any religion you like.

here's a start:.

Frank75

Governing Body!

Actually the word does in a round about way appear in the bible. However it is anything but flattering to the dub interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin

Which goes to show that if the dubs are in fact the reestablishment of anything 1st Century, it would be Pharisaical Judaism!

Committee

Again there is an approximation of the JC in scripture. In like manner, this too in no way flatters the dub religion.

Job was harassed by a self righteous "committee" of 3 men.

Likewise Paul challenged them as being illegitimate.

(1 Corinthians 4:3) Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal.. . .

If witnesses judged Tribunals the same as they do Birthdays, they would be classified as Pagan too, since the only two references in the bible to the forming of a Judicial Tribunal are very negative.

Just my two cents worth.

Frank75

39

How Would You Refute JW's Claim Of Being The ONLY True Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

since the new tract tells us "the end of false religion is near!

", jehovah's witnesses maintain that they alone are the only true religion.

how would you dispute that??

Frank75

Mr Kim:

I am sorry that I do not know much about your past and I can see that you put LOL after your post, but for clarity to those lurking the above quote is not of my originality. Most JW's I would think will recognize the reasoning as JW.

*** rsp.323Religion***
Is
ittruethatthereisgoodinallreligions?
Most religions do teach that a person should not lie or steal, and so forth. But is that sufficient? Would you be happy to drink a glass of poisoned water because someone assured you that most of what you were getting was water?

This above quote from the JW reasoning book was often stated to people in service as a way to shake them loose from their so-called "false" religion and at the same time imply that ours was perfectly pure water.

I do not personally believe that the analogy works and agree with you, as most water we drink the world over does in fact contain, toxins, heavy metals and poisons! Also, even an honest JW would admit that the Watchtower religion is far from pure!

Frank75