SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

by jgnat 63 Replies latest social relationships

TheListener
Are you open with your partner about your participation on this board?

Do you hide your reference materials from your partner?

Have you had any close calls, and if so, describe them?

If you are secretive about your anti-JW activities, do you plan on coming clean with your partner at some time?

If you do plan on coming clean, when do you anticipate doing so?

If your partner is aware of your anti-JW activity, how do they react?

Any stories to share?

1. No. I don't plan on saying anything about this board unless my spouse decides the truth isn't for her.
2. Yes. I have some confusion here. I've got research up the wazoo on certain subjects that interest me. But, I don't really want my spouse to know I've even seen or heard any apostate thinking. If she finds that out she'll completely dismiss anything I say as apostate words.
3. No.
4. Yes. If my spouse ever leave the dubs I plan on spilling everything. I hate having to do things in secret.
5. It all depends on my spouse and her attitude toward my fade. I've faded to a great extent at this point. Our discussions have been minimal, which isn't always a good thing. I need to come clean with how I feel in a general way, but I'm not really sure the best way to go about that yet.
6. n/a
7. I've had to fade in a gradual manner. My fade has upset my spouse a great deal. But, with each step of the fade she has continued to love and support me (even if there is an initial blow up of anger when the realization hits that another milestone in the fade is achieved - like stepping aside as an elder). Our relationship is closer now that ever before. I've worked for the last 3 years to ensure that I'm a great husband and father. I feel that giving a strong base of support is important if you really expect your spouse to give up the WT foundation they've always had. I don't want my spouse to fear that as a non-witness I'll be some drinking, whoring, mooching loser. I will be the exact same as I've always been, only better. Better because now I can be a father and husband without all the witness tradition and taboo hanging over my head. My spouse will listen to reason, and is willing to think on some subjects. However, if apostate material were to be brought up or admitted to everything would come to an abrupt end. All thinking and reasoning must be of my own origin. Thank you all for making me appear to be the smartest single individual since Einstein.
I knew when I started my journey away from the witness that the road would be lonely and possibly cost me my wife and family. I've made myself suffer intolerable frustration, anger, guilt, pain and sickness to fade and not just get up and walk away. I've done it for my family and for no other reason. So far the payoff has been a closer family relationship and some leeway in witness rules and regulations. I can only hope that when the time comes to discuss things in more detail that I'm clear and sensible. I pray regularly for assitance with that.
freedomlover

Reply to Twinflame....info. on Luau's and voting...
Let’s Have a Hawaiian Luau
WT 6/8/2002 pp 24-27
[Footnote]
Although the luau may originally have had some connection with false
religious practices, the word has simply come to refer to a Hawaiian
banquet. Many Christians may therefore conscientiously feel that they can
participate.
==
Awake! 4/8/2003 p 30
Luaus I read with interest your article "Let’s Have a Hawaiian Luau." (June
8, 2002) Several years ago I attended a luau in Hawaii. I felt there were
strong religious and spiritistic overtones. Even if luaus today do not
involve religious or spiritistic aspects, how are they different from other
celebrations that have pagan origins but simply have been adopted by modern
cultures to be a family fun gathering?
L. F., United States
"Awake!" responds: As noted there in our footnote on page 24, while the luau
may at one time have had a connection with false religious practices, the
word now has simply come to refer to a Hawaiian banquet. A specific
gathering to which the word "luau" is applied may or may not be appropriate
for a Christian to attend. As in all aspects of life, Christians should make
decisions that will leave them with a clear conscience before Jehovah God.—1
Timothy 1:5, 19; see also the January 8, 2000, issue of "Awake!" pages 26-7.
==
The Piñata Today
Awake! 9/22/2003 pp 22-24
Later, the piñata became part of the festivities of the posadas during the
Christmas season and continues as such to this day. (A star-shaped piñata is
used to represent the star that guided the astrologers to Bethlehem.)
Breaking the piñata is also considered indispensable at birthday parties.
Indeed, piñatas have become so traditionally Mexican that Mexico even
exports them to other countries.
We found that for many people in Mexico, the piñata has lost its religious
significance and is considered by most to be just harmless fun. In fact,
piñatas are used in Mexico on many festive occasions, not just for the
posadas or for birthdays. And piñatas can be purchased in many forms other
than the traditional star shape. They are sometimes made to resemble
animals, flowers, clowns.
When considering whether to include a piñata at a social gathering,
Christians should be sensitive to the consciences of others. (1 Corinthians
10:31-33) A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years
ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may
vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such
matters into big issues. The Bible says: "Let each one keep seeking, not his
own advantage, but that of the other person."—1 Corinthians 10:24.
*** w99 11/1 pp. 28-29 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
How do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?
ithinkisee

*** w99 11/1 pp. 28-29 Questions From Readers ***
Questions
From Readers
How
do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?
There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.
What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.
First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being "no part of the world," they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.
Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an "ambassador" representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.
A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.
Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.
Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.
In view of the Scriptural principles outlined above, in many lands Jehovah’s Witnesses make a personal decision not to vote in political elections, and their freedom to make that decision is supported by the law of the land. What, though, if the law requires citizens to vote? In such a case, each Witness is responsible to make a conscientious, Bible-based decision about how to handle the situation. If someone decides to go to the polling booth, that is his decision. What he does in the polling booth is between him and his Creator.
The November 15, 1950, issue of The Watchtower, on pages 445 and 446, said: "Where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote . . . [Witnesses] can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith. It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot."
What if a Christian woman’s unbelieving husband insists that she present herself to vote? Well, she is subject to her husband, just as Christians are subject to the superior authorities. (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 2:13-17) If she obeys her husband and goes to the polling booth, that is her personal decision. No one should criticize her.—Compare Romans 14:4.
What of a country where voting is not mandated by law but feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth—perhaps they are exposed to physical danger? Or what if individuals, while not legally obliged to vote, are severely penalized in some way if they do not go to the polling booth? In these and similar situations, a Christian has to make his own decision. "Each one will carry his own load."—Galatians 6:5.
There may be people who are stumbled when they observe that during an election in their country, some Witnesses of Jehovah go to the polling booth and others do not. They may say, ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses are not consistent.’ People should recognize, though, that in matters of individual conscience such as this, each Christian has to make his own decision before Jehovah God.—Romans 14:12.
Whatever personal decisions Jehovah’s Witnesses make in the face of different situations, they take care to preserve their Christian neutrality and freeness of speech. In all things, they rely on Jehovah God to strengthen them, give them wisdom, and help them avoid compromising their faith in any way. Thus they show confidence in the words of the psalmist: "You are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me."—Psalm 31:3.
twinflame

Thank you so much for those en'lightening' articles, freedomlover. I just had to shake my head. Just when I think I've learned about all there is, something like this comes along. I see these came out after I quit attending. I just can't understand how anyone with even a limited amount of intelligence can't see the hypocrisy written in the pages of these filthy rags. Talk about talking out both sides of their mouth....they've honed it into a fine art.
Has there ever been a thread about these two things before? I am still shocked to learn this.
GoingGoingGone

1. Are you open with your partner about your participation on this board?
Absolutely not. He knows I'm up to something, but I would could never tell him what I'm doing, not now anyway.
2. Do you hide your reference materials from your partner?
Yup... A little here, a little there. I thought of putting it all together in one spot, but then if my husband found that one spot, he'd find everything.
3. Have you had any close calls, and if so, describe them?
Lots of them... I don't do sneaky very well... I've gotten more daring the last few months, and I'll go on exJW sites when he's home. Like I said, he knows I'm up to something, but he pretty much leaves me alone. If he's approaching the office, for example, and he knows I'm in here on the computer, he'll talk to the dog or something on his way, sort of to let me know he's coming. Well, a few weeks ago, he suddenly stopped doing that, and I would find him 2 seconds away from being at my side, with the computer screen full of JWD and me IMing 'apostates'... !!! So I would close down everything, and he would say in a disgusted voice, what the heck are you doing??? sheesh.... He doesn't do that anymore, btw.
4. If you are secretive about your anti-JW activities, do you plan on coming clean with your partner at some time?
Absolutely. My husband knows that I am more than willing to share everything I have learned with him, if he can just assure me that he won't go to the elders with the info and have me df'd. I told him this months and months ago, and actually, since then I have questioned the wisdom of dropping everything in his lap like that.... So if he ever DOES ask, he'll get a much more elementary version of what I now know. If he ever does ask, and is leaving the WT himself, he will know everything I have ever done online.
5. If you do plan on coming clean, when do you anticipate doing so?
I agree with ithinkisee here, as far as not offering anything until the believing mate reeeeealy wants it. I will come completely clean when I know that my husband is leaving the WTS, and I will offer the information as I think he can handle it, some things not until he asks specifically.
6. If your partner is aware of your anti-JW activity, how do they react?
When he first became aware that I was visiting anti-JW sites, he was really angry, which is saying something because he's a very laid-back kind of guy. He's gotten used to it now, and now I think his curiosity is getting to him. At times, I think he's dying to know who I'm talking to or what I'm reading. But he also knows that info is off limits to him, for my own self-preservation. I don't think he'll ever leave the WTS just to find out what I'm doing, but the fact that I can be so happy being away from the WT, when I have always been so 'spiritual', is gnawing at him I think.
7. Any stories to share?
I have a ton, but this was one of my first close calls: My husband and I had JUST had the emotional talk, where I told him that I didn't believe it anymore and that I would share all my info with him if he would promise not to go to the elders and have me df'd (of course, he is an elder, but you know what I mean...) So we had a sort of 'understanding'. I had ordered CoC, plus a couple of benign books, to be delivered on a day he was out of town. The delivery arrived on the promised day... minus CoC, which (of course) was shipped a day later, and my husband answered the door when it was delivered. He picked it up and was about to open the package, when I tried to take it from him... he wouldn't let me... so I said, You don't want to open that. He says, Why not?? Trust me, I said, you don't want to open that. By now I had the package... He went off on a rant again, how he didn't know what was wrong with me, what the heck I was doing, etc....... But he didn't ask to see what was in the package, and he never mentioned it again. Good grief... just telling that story has given me a headache... I think I'll go make myself a marguerita....
jgnat

I am so happy with all the candid replies! Thank you everybody!
Freedomlover, you add a whole new dimension with your perspective. For most of us, we have to guess how our partner will react. You give us an inside scoop that is so helpful and encouraging. And I roared with laughter all over again with ITIS's futile attempt to shut down the laptop, "Who me?"
TheListener, you highlight again the personal cost of staying undercover.
GoingGoingGone, priceless, "You don't want to open that!". You highlight the reality that many of our partners don't want to know what we are discovering, and will turn a blind eye rather than face something they aren't ready for. I think you've hit an important concept, wait until "they reeeely want it".
I wonder if a little bit of ourselves yearns to come clean.
jgnat

Now, as promised, my answers. A bit of background first. Hubby and I married each other with eyes wide open about the difference in our beliefs. I knew he was a dedicated JW and he knew I was a dedicated regular Christian. I think hubby admires my spunk. We both like a little controversy, and we enjoy sparring over minor doctrinal matters.
I get mad when he tries to abstain from family events. Christmas is very hard. He gets frustrated when he tries to reconcile both lifestyles. I rudely dismissed him at my stepmom's funeral when he tried to bring up Jehovah, literally pushing him out the door. Humiliated, he lost it. He tries to justify his breakdown by questioning why I shut him down after only two words. I am deeply betrayed that I did not have my husband at my side at the hardest funeral of my life. That's the worst.
The best is that we are both free to be who we are. His natural personality is that of a clown. I let him be who he is. I go off in flights of theory and concepts. He makes sure I eat and I don't lose my keys. With all that, I probably have more freedom to be myself than some of you.
1. Are you open with your partner about your participation on this board?
Yes. He doesn't want details, as he figures the board is full of apostates and immoral people. He is not aware of what 6,000 posts means about my level of involvement.
2. Do you hide your reference materials from your partner?
No. Hiding in plain sight.
3. Have you had any close calls, and if so, describe them?
Probably the most difficult to explain are the calls I've received from Onacruse and AlanF. Why would men from halfway around North America be calling me? I tell him these are intelligent men, worthy association. By my animated conversation, he's got a hint that perhaps my support for his choice of religion is rather superficial.
4. If you are secretive about your anti-JW activities, do you plan on coming clean with your partner at some time?

5. If you do plan on coming clean, when do you anticipate doing so?
C_Y_P's response reminded me that I have not come completely clean regarding my depth of involvement. But as GoingGoingGone and ITIS say so well, it is likely he doesn't want me to. The best time, it seems, is when they really, really want it. (Said in my best Sandra Bullock voice).
6. If your partner is aware of your anti-JW activity, how do they react?
He laughs. I think he is secretly proud he has such a smart wife. The other day he commented that I must really love researching and debating this stuff. I must have had four magazines and his "Aid to Bible Understanding" spread out as I feverishly researched an obscure subject.
7. Any stories to share?
I good example of our unusual understanding is our relationship with Blondie and Irreverent. I've been blessed to be visited twice by this lovely couple. I wasn't sure if hubby would want to be involved, so without giving too much detail, I told him they would be coming, that they are salt-of-the-earth good people, and I would be spending the day with them. He asked if they were in good standing. I told him they were inactive, but Blondie studies the magazine every week. All true, but, ahem, maybe not complete.
The first time Blondie and Irreverent came, we had a day of activity planned and hubby was irresistably drawn in to the fun. Irreverent was very patient with him. Hubby asked him point blank why he left the "truth", and was truly puzzled why Irreverent would step down from the grand priveledge as an elder. Irreverent kindly deflected the question telling him he did not want to compromise Hubby's faith. They have both showered love and kindnesses on my hubby, far more than he ever received from the hall, which I am forever grateful for.
By the time of their second visit, hubby had concluded that they must be inactive, and told me that he would have to limit his association. But yet again, their genuine spirit of love and care overpowered hubby's objections and we had a second lovely visit.
I think this highlights the conflict between the poor cult personality who still struggles to obey all the WT commands, and the man underneath who is irresistably drawn to genuine friendships.
ithinkisee

He is not aware of what 6,000 posts means about my level of involvement.

Ahem ... 7000+ posts ....
-ithinkisee
Check_Your_Premises

Ahem ... 7000+ posts ....

Ok, I need a call from the female judges here.
This is in no way similar to pointing out woman's age right? I can point out a the number of posts a woman has made, and if it is a huge number, it is in no way an insult right?
CYP
GoingGoingGone

This is in no way similar to pointing out woman's age right? I can point out a the number of posts a woman has made, and if it is a huge number, it is in no way an insult right?

Correct - as long as there is no attempt to claim that said huge number of posts is in any way, shape, or form proof that women verbalize excessively.
GGG

SECRECY, Pros and Cons...UBM's, I'm asking you

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