JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

by Maximus 141 Replies latest jw friends

TMS

Anchor:
"Read it again, or disagree. Facts are facts."
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logic?
TMS
hillary_step

TMS and Joel,
What seems to be consistently missed by some in this issue is the figure that Maximus quoted as returning to the WTS after a period out. He is not stating that 86% leave never to return but that 86% leave at some time in their youth. as he noted 25% of these return for whatever reason, leaving a total of those who permanently leave at around 60%. The figure I have seen in report of those who leave the WTS and do not return ( in Europe ) is 50%.
My own personal experiences certainly do not put these figures into the realm of Science Fiction.
Hope this clarifies the point a little - HS
ozziepost

TMS said: "Many former Bethelites are among the most disillusioned. Seeing that it is an organization of men destroyed their fantasy of a "faithful and discreet slave"."
This is so true. The R&F think of some nebulous Spirit direction of the WTS. After some years, particularly around Service Dept, you get to see the internal politics in all its glory. "Spirit directed organisation" is a fantasy cooked up to cover over the faults and injustices perpetrated on the suffering ones in congregations.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Evil is the absence of empathy"
Movie (2000), Nuremberg
TweetieBird

Very interesting post.
I do not know about statistics, but on a personal note, looking back at the number of kids that I grew up with, only a handful are still JW's. In my little realm of the earth, I would say about 40-50% are still "in the truth." Of those that profess to still be JW's, probably half of them are devoted JW's with the other half putting in token appearances at the meetings to keep their friends and family.
As for my children, I have 4, ages 10-20, only 1 shows the slightest interest in going to the KH, occasionally telling me that we need to get back to the meetings, of which I blow off. That one, incidentally, has not mentioned that for at least 2 months, we're making progress. Of the children that my children grew up with, only a small percentage still attend meetings. My oldest son hangs out with 2 that are df'd, and 4 that quit going when they reached legal age.
When I first started reading this post, I was thinking along the same lines as Joelbear, but when I started analyzing the situation in my area, I don't think the statistics are too far off the mark.
"By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero
waiting

Figures for growth can be deceiving - if not pinpointed where the growth originates. In our community, South Carolina, the major growth area is the Mexican congregations - and there is tremendous growth among the migrant workers. And they tend to be illiterate, or at the most, the lowest education, as they are workers without homes, or just acquired a trailer.
The growth in Third World Countries is up, as would be expected, particular in the former USSR area. To be kept in mind, most religions coming into the former USSR are showing tremendous growth - the people are curious and hungry to read. The WTBTS' figures of growth in that area are not unique.
So.......growth worldwide is not great, and in Industrialized Countries, almost non-existent. This has been discussed on several threads here and on H20.
As for kids - I think that 50% of jw kids who permanently leave the org. is somewhat conservative for our area. I also think the figure of 26% who ultimately come back - and then don't do much "theocratically" is also high. That is for our area, however.
For our lurking elder......we have 5 elders (used to be 7) and not one of them have a child in the org (and they all have grown children). Well, ok, 2 children are still in - but they're 7 & 9 yrs old.
What people don't seem to catch is the guilt felt by the parents that they did wrong, not enough, could have done better, if only...... And it's reinforced in talks, talks, talks - and other jw's comments. I think that's one reason parents are willing to shun their own loved children - to get them back to get rid of the unrelenting guilt that is heaped upon us all.
waiting
GentlyFeral

Maximus,
Thanks for the tidbits from the local Episcopalian calendar. Here's a sampling from our UU church, from memory (which is why the dates are omitted):
Sunday after church: middle school and high school youth groups all converge on somebody's house for video games, movies, assorted hijinks. Alleged to be supervised by the host's parents.
Women's Spirituality (monthly). Teens welcome, though none participate right now. Topics range from rituals adapted from pagan traditions to the problems faced by adolescent girls, to a wide variety of political topics.
Movie Night (monthly).
There are two book discussion groups, and a third is starting.
There is a CUUPS chapter (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans) which holds rituals on every Wiccan sabbat (about every six weeks).
Monthly excursions to a local little theatre.
Monthly circle suppers in members' homes. The guests at each home are chosen by lot from among those who sign up.
Monthly church potluck after the service.
Weekly choir practice, NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY.
From time to time we have mini-courses on Building Your Own Theology, Owning Your Religious Past, Evensong (a very small group worship/meditation/idea-tennis) and other brain candy.
Most of our teens belong to YRUU, the denominational youth organization, which holds conventions at least 4 times yearly.
There's more, but I forget. Our church has about 160 people. It's a very small building, so we're about to go to two services.
Gently Feral
"There were cockroaches of course,
but very clean cockroaches."
-- Julia Vinograd
Abaddon

Fascinating, high quality thread.
I especially find interesting the active particpation in the debate or indeed instigation of the debate by 'insiders'.
Although I myself am a humanist now, it's good to see people with open minds. I am curious what extent of reform you desire - basically whether you just want to polish the bumpers to keep it going, or want to re-bore the engine. But I admire your individuality and personal integrity.
Sociologically speaking as a religion, the JW's are at a threshold of continued cultishness and obscurity, or re-oriontation to a more 'mainline' Christian religion with its own unique distinctiveness that DOESN'T actually reduce you to a foreclosed individual when you're a teenager. The quotation in CoC of the statement in the 'Plain Truth' by the leaders of the Worldwide Church of God is something I find utterly remarkable, but a proof that rapid and decisive change is possible; if only the GB had such humility and candor, they would slip into the group of Christians I admire as individuals, even though I don't share their beliefs.
But I am not holding my breath, nor would such a dramatic multi-point doctrinal turn-around make me want to re-attend. Actually, I WOULD re-attend, but only to catch up with old friends, something I cannot do at the moment as I don't suddenly want to get df'd having avoided it for so long to keep family ties unimpaired.
As it stands they could do if I was re-attending rather than being 'inactive' for so long I can live life as I see fit with impunity from Judasial Commlynching.
In the cong I did most of my growing up in, I was the most Borged of my generational cohort; son of respected Elder, in Org since '40's, made a Mini young... I think that of, oh, twenty or so kids, now only a half-dozen are really active. Some are 'inactives' - people who cannot stop believing but cannot carry on practising. I don't know any who are as 'out' as I am - as in happy with their choice, no guilt, no hankering after the lost community, no half-arsed pretence at Memorials to stop Mum blubbing, able to pull apart scriptual doctrine and scientific counter-arguement.
Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends upon your point of view!
My family though are horribly 'strong'. My elest bro never got involved, but he died in a car crash. Other than me, the rest of the family are Dubs; two brothers, their wives, their seven boys, my x-wife. One nephew is probably playing on his own agenda; biding his time while he studies to be a dentist, going along with it, but not being baptised at the ripe old age of 20, so when he stops, he can still have largely unimpaired familial contact.
But exceptional families like mine are the exception; of Elders kids, in my growing-up cong I can think of NO boys, and maybe three girls who are still in, out of maybe ten kids Elders kids in my 'cohort'.
And that's in a very Afro-Carribian cong; in more white congs with less extended families and a less religous cultural background (we're talking England here, where white people are as religous as toast on the whole) I think it would often be worse.
joelbear

--growth worldwide is not great--
Well, you know, I don't have a college degree but I am pretty good at Math and an increase of 50% in 10 years I would consider to be pretty great. And this counts only active Jehovah's Witnesses. I bet if you counted all those people who said they were Jehovah's Witnesses and compared that to a similar group of 10 years ago that the growth number might be even higher.
Perhaps someone could post the 1990 US average publisher number and the 2000 US average publisher number so we could see what the growth was just in the US.
I agree that most of the growth is coming from third world or uneducated segments of society, but I don't want to see these people's lives used anymore than upper class educated people's lives.
I agree that facts are facts. Lets get some facts and then discuss those. Not trying to be argumentative, but I do like to have accurate information to base my thoughts on.
hugs
Joel
TweetieBird

waiting, posted:
"What people don't seem to catch is the guilt felt by the parents that they did wrong, not enough, could have done better, if only...... And it's reinforced in talks, talks, talks - and other jw's comments. I think that's one reason parents are willing to shun their own loved children - to get them back to get rid of the unrelenting guilt that is heaped upon us all."
That is a biggie. I know my own mother would always try to hide the fact that not all of her children are/were still "in the truth." She could never tell people about my oldest brother who is clearly apostate (he he). I have another brother that has been df'd since about 1974 for smoking. She doesn't like to admit these things.
When I was still attending meetings, people would ask me how old my children were and then ask how many were baptized. I could see the look of disgust on their faces when I told them none were baptized. It used to bother me, but now I could give a sh.. (oops) crap.
Which brings me back to the original theme of this thread, I strongly believe that another reason why so many teenagers leave and are disfellowshipped is because they are coerced into getting baptized at such a young age. I remember the last few circuit assemblies that I attended, the young ones getting baptized were around the 8 to 10 year old range. There is no way in hell that someone of that age has the wisdom or knowledge to know what they are doing. What's going to happen when puberty hits and they are filled with raging hormones? I've seen it happen over and over again.
Jesus was 30 when he got baptized and he was perfect. Shouldn't that tell the GB something?
"By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero
waiting

and an increase of 50% in 10 years I would consider to be pretty great. And this counts only active Jehovah's Witnesses. - Joelbear
This is something I've wondered about before. Where, in writing, does the WTBTS say that when giving numbers, they count only active publishers in their figures?
Joel, you make good points, but in the WTBTS yearbooks, they give year to year growth - not decade to decade. I never did keep the yearbooks after the year desginated. Of course, in a particular WT, it gave growth figures for only the preceeding year.
Decade to decade, you might be correct - but then the USSR fell within this last decade. Like has been posted, I do know that growth in industrialized countries is flat, if not in the nagative. I remember the figures from last year.
The growth is among the least educated persons, least likely to have internet access, least likely to have money to spare.
waiting
ps - getting ready for work. I know we've discussed this on this forum - have you done a search to find the figures?

JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

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