Come to think of it - your argument supports catholocism, in that whether good or wicked the authority for leading is still passed along anyway.
Newbie question; Why do JW hypocrites PROVE that they're a cult?
by psycsnacha 101 Replies latest jw experiences
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Scully
their consciouses
OK. I am pretty certain that you're a troll now. Someone with a degree in psychology would certainly know the difference between the words "conscious" and "conscience".
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looking_glass
Psy - in reply to your response relative to cults, you referenced the Mosaic law and how it was set up and could be viewed as cultish. It is my understanding that JWs do not feel we are any longer under the Mosaic law as Christ died in order to do away with that law. It is also my understanding that JWs do not believe that God speaks directly with humans anymore as he did during the time of the Mosaic law. The problem with that logic is that although JWs may think that Jah's holy spirit is directing the WTBTS' GB and/or the work at hand, what evidence to they have to support their claims. Considering the stories told in the bible, god spoke with Moses, Moses spoke to god's people. Even god's people questioned and asked for proof and in turn god gave it to them.
I would like to point out to you others who also felt they were being directed by god. Jim Jones made the same claims. Those who lived in Waco could claim the same thing. And in fact many of those who walked out of Waco actual continue to believe that their leader David was a prophet because he did in fact predict things that came to happen. But the rest of the world would laugh at that notion as a self fulfilled prophecy.
A cult is defined in many ways, however, I do like the most simple one "The word [cult] suggests fanaticism, "weird" ideas and practices, and improper psychological pressure." .... "It is not possible in this text to pass final judgments on these issues. It is appropriate, however, to issue emphatic warnings against affiliation with any group, religious or otherwise that encourages young people to alienate themselves from their families." Gordon Textbook of Psychology for You (from psych 101). Although the book is basic it is pretty dead on when it addresses issues of cult mentalty that are later studied through the course.
Further studies in psych cover the cult mentality and JWs fit it's criteria. There are other religions that fit it as well, but I am not concerned with them, because the JW religion is the one that affects my life.
JWs issolate themselves from others. They strongly encourse people to not associate with people who are not JWs, even family. They have an ongoing persecution complex. The believe they are the only right religion. If that is not a form of prejudice, I don't know what is. The Klan also thinks the are superior to everyone and the white man is the only one that has the right to live. Many klansmen believe they are doing god's will. Does that make them right?
The us or them complex is what also bothers me. The conspiracy theory behind everything. If it is not the government out to get them, it is satan. They some how forget that we are imperfect and mistakes will be made along the way. The issues the religion has with members who leave and then speak out against thems borders on absolute paranoia. If god gave us free will then why are JWs punished for using it within their own religion.
Again, based on the fact that I am 3rd gen JW, I was a pioneer for YEARS, served where the need was great, have many family members that are still JWs, I know the mentality that JWs have, I find it hard to believe that you have not been talked to about being a publisher but not getting baptized after 4 years regardless of the reasons you have. I commend you for being able to stand up to them and not give in. However, I have no doubt that your motives are questioned with the congo and that people have privately marked you. The reason I say this, is because growing up I knew many a wife who was in and whose husband followed along never baptized and at first they were open to the idea and then after a couple of years the congo privately marked him as a "non-believer" who should not be encouraged to associate with the congo privately anymore unless he got baptized.
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AuldSoul
scully: I am pretty certain that you're a troll now. Someone with a degree in psychology would certainly know the difference between the words "conscious" and "conscience".
Same thought, but it seemed a little antagonistic...and I'm still curious where he's headed with this. That misspelling is a fairly common layman mistake, but given the difference in his purported field between those two and the frequent usage of each in classwork to obtain a degree, I cannot imagine him making that mistake if he has a degree in Psychology. Unless he is dyslexic ("ysdexlic" for his benefit, if so).
He's obviously a smart fellow and, like all JWs who have a few brain cells rubbing together, he thinks he has applied logic to things that are provably illogical. I was the same way two years ago.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Scully
Same thought, but it seemed a little antagonistic
Perhaps it was, but I could have just restricted his posting limit rather severely without saying anything too, which I didn't. If he cares to offer an explanation, I'm sure we'll all be keen to see it. However, I'm guessing that - like every other question that people have posed to him - he's just going to ignore it and go off in another direction and hope we'll forget about it.
I'm still curious where he's headed with this. That misspelling is a fairly common layman mistake, but given the difference in his purported field between those two and the frequent usage of each in classwork to obtain a degree, I cannot imagine him making that mistake if he has a degree in Psychology.
You've basically said the same thing I did and added a little fluffy puffy bunny cuddle to make the smackdown softer (and maybe more fun for you?). More power to you.
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psycsnacha
misspellings! oh may I be struck with thunder so that I can learn to care enough to proofread. Is it really that serious?
haha, the attempted character assasination is quite amusing.
The true mark of those who've been empowered by the TRUTH and seek to lead their lives accordingly. Continue walking in Jesus's example my friends.
I'll be around
peace
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AuldSoul
I say again and this is NOT making excuses, it's perspective. The bible shows that Jehovah HAS used IMPERFECT people to carry out his will in the past. He has used both those who were dedicated to him as well as those who were not (the Babylonians and the Romans in bringing down the nation of Israel for example). This tells me that it is not necessarily the credibility of the people that I should look at to decide if Jehovah is working THROUGH them or not rather it is their works and how it fits with Bible prophecy. Right?
Wrong. Christianity worked on a completely different basis than anything that came along prior. "In my opinion" goes without saying, however I have quite a lot of Scriptural support for my conclusion.
Acts 6:1-15 — Now in these days, when the disciples were increasing, a murmuring arose on the part of the Greek-speaking Jews against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution. 2 So the twelve called the multitude of the disciples to them and said: “It is not pleasing for us to leave the word of God to distribute [food] to tables. 3 So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business; 4 but we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 5 And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit, and Philip and Proch´o·rus and Ni·ca´nor and Ti´mon and Par´me·nas and Nic·o·la´us, a proselyte of Antioch; 6 and they placed them before the apostles, and, after having prayed, these laid their hands upon them.
7 Consequently the word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much; and a great crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.
8 Now Stephen, full of graciousness and power, was performing great portents and signs among the people. 9 But certain men rose up of those from the so-called Synagogue of the Freedmen, and of the Cy·re´ni·ans and Alexandrians and of those from Ci·li´cia and Asia, to dispute with Stephen; 10 and yet they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say: “We have heard him speaking blasphemous sayings against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people and the older men and the scribes, and, coming upon him suddenly, they took him by force and led him to the San´he·drin. 13 And they brought forward false witnesses, who said: “This man does not stop speaking things against this holy place and against the Law. 14 For instance, we have heard him say that this Jesus the Naz·a·rene´ will throw down this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.”
15 And as all those sitting in the San´he·drin gazed at him, they saw that his face was as an angel’s face.
Galatians 2:1-6 — Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Bar´na·bas, taking also Titus along with me. 2 But I went up as a result of a revelation. And I laid before them the good news which I am preaching among the nations, privately, however, before those who were outstanding men, for fear that somehow I was running or had run in vain. 3 Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 4 But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us— 5 to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU.
6 But on the part of those who seemed to be something—whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me—God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new.
Acts 10:34-43 — At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ: this One is Lord of all [others]. 37 YOU know the subject that was talked about throughout the whole of Ju·de´a, starting from Gal´i·lee after the baptism that John preached, 38 namely, Jesus who was from Naz´a·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they also did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Romans 2:1-11 — Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that the judgment of God is, in accord with truth, against those who practice such things.
3 But do you have this idea, O man, while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly [quality] of God is trying to lead you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment. 6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness there will be wrath and anger, 9 tribulation and distress, upon the soul of every man who works what is injurious, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
1 Thessalonians 1:2-7 — We always thank God when we make mention concerning all of YOU in our prayers, 3 for we bear incessantly in mind YOUR faithful work and [your] loving labor and [your] endurance due to [your] hope in our Lord Jesus Christ before our God and Father. 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, his choosing of YOU, 5 because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes; 6 and YOU became imitators of us and of the Lord, seeing that YOU accepted the word under much tribulation with joy of holy spirit, 7 so that YOU came to be an example to all the believers in Mac·e·do´ni·a and in A·cha´ia.
Hebrews 13:7 — Remember those who are taking the lead among YOU, who have spoken the word of God to YOU, and as YOU contemplate how [their] conduct turns out imitate [their] faith.
1 Timothy 3:1-9 — If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.
8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.And the very fellow who gives us "faith without works is dead" also does not leave us guessing about what works he means.
James 1:26-27 — If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man’s form of worship is futile. 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
That is the only "work" described in the entire letter. On both scores, Jehovah's Witnesses fail the litmus test miserably.
But when it comes to pouring countless dollars and billions of hours into an ineffective preaching work, or spending countless hours prodding sheep into slave labor with emotional manipulation through guilt, or stating (in effect) "go, keep warm and well fed" while "saving people's lives" by preaching a false Word that God did not utter ("commands of men as doctrine"), or the sheer numbers who are brought in to the "truth", well, when looked at from that angle Jehovah's Witnesses still fall far behind the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints and many Evangelical organizations.
So, if you wish to prove by works that your organization is God's chosen people, tell me frankly what standard you use. Do you perhaps subscribe to the list in the book, Reasoning From the Scriptures?
*** rs p. 283 - p. 284 Organization ***
How can Jehovah’s visible organization in our day be identified?(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
(2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
(3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
(5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
(6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
(7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.Here are my responses:
(1) Wow, gotta go with them on that one. They even do this to the harm of the one who has been given a name above every other name, and they fail to worship the glorified Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 1:5, 6)
(2) It also recognizes that if Jesus is merely "a god" he is a false god, but that if Jesus is now exalted to a deified position by the only One who could grant such authority ("all authority in heaven and on earth"), then he is deserving of worship, praise, glory, and honor. We can speak to him, too. He is "the Alpha and the Omega." (Revelation 1:8; 21:5-8; 22:12-16)
(3) 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 — "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." Well, one verse lets them out of this criterion. Their doctrine is that Jesus is mediator between God and 144,000, a demonstrably false doctrine that also prevents their meeting criterion #2. They fail to recognize one of the most basic roles of Jesus Christ, that of mediator for all mankind to reconcile them to God. (Romans 6-8)
(4) A 10-year Associate membership to the UN/DPI is hardly separate. Applying for the membership demonstrated desire to part of the world, regardless of the purpose behind acquiring and maintaining the Associate membership.
*** re chap. 33 p. 243 Judging the Infamous Harlot ***
21 What of the League’s successor, the United Nations? From its inception, this body has also had the great harlot riding on its back, visibly associated with it and trying to guide its destiny.
Romans 2:1-2 — Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that the judgment of God is, in accord with truth, against those who practice such things.(5) They certainly fail this criterion. The organization maintains the outward appearance of a high standard of moral cleanness, but inside it is full of immoderateness, plunder, (literal) dead men's bones, and every sort of uncleanness. (Matthew 23:25-28)
(6) Assumes facts not in evidence, namely (a) that our day was foretold, and (b) that the preaching work is the primary work to be done. According to the Bible there are quite a few things more important than preaching. Just because Paul and some others occupied their entire lives in that work does not mean that attitude is incumbent upon all Christians. Paul himself repeatedly emphasized the need for study as the "more important thing" devoting personal time to "perceiving what the will of God is," changing ourselves, and fellowshipping with other Christians also takes precedence over preaching, "and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." (Romans 12:1, 2; Philippians 1:8-11; Ephesians 4:20-24; 5:15-17; Hebrews 10:19-25) Which of the congregations received commendation for their preaching work?
(7) Well...they fail this one, too. Again, there is the outward appearance of piety and some who are not JWs are fooled, however they are not widely known for "kindness" or for "goodness" or for "joy". And within the organization, we know the lack of love, peace, long-suffering, faith, mildness, and self-control. Well, the elders and their families know of the lack, at least. Sometimes the congregants are blind to the lack because of the privacy with which all Judicial matters/counseling are handled.
If this were a child's matching game, I would have to admit that they don't match a single criterion that they established for themselves. Do you use a different criteria than this one? If so, why? And what criteria do you use?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
BluesBrother
Those who are ex-JWs, is your path towards finding the truth about God any clearer since you left? Are you non-denominational now and if so how do you reconcile the bibles words of not forsaking the gathering of brothers and sisters, also of the words of the existence of a united body of christian brothers and sisters
I picked up this point from somewhere up the thread.. In fact it is a classic J W line to say to opposers "OK, so what is your answer to it all then?"My answer can only be that one does not have to know the right path home in order to see when you are going clearly in the wrong direction. I do not know the correct way of approach to God, I wish that I did But I an sure of one thing, that is that the J W organization does not have it.
"God is love" but the WT teaches that God will slaughter untold millions for no better reason than that they chose a different religion.
The WT has forecast the imminence of Armageddon for around 130 years. It still has not come
An honest appraisal of all their special and unique doctrines does not stand up to intelligent questioning , as many others have demonstrated. If one used the same yardstick as applied to other faiths the shortcomings are only too clear. Somebody has probably said this, but essential reading for a person in your position must be "Crisis of Conscience" by ex Governing Body member Ray Franz. Do it before you are banned from so doing by a baptism vow.
The organization itself, not individual members, has been guilty of deception and lies. Please check out the U N scandal and double check the quotations attributed to sources in the "Creation book" and other publications.
And you still want to study with them?
I do agree that most Witnesses and as far as I know, even their leaders are normal regular people. The failings are human failings. But that is my point. Human , not Spirit directed after all
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MinisterAmos
Thanks AuldSoul for applying the WT's own 'test' to show that it is lacking.
We all sat there in meetings (some uncomfortably because we realized what was happening) and listened to the WT's own words damn itself.
The mystery is how so many fail to recognize the most obvious proofs.
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AuldSoul
Those who are ex-JWs, is your path towards finding the truth about God any clearer since you left? Are you non-denominational now and if so how do you reconcile the bibles words of not forsaking the gathering of brothers and sisters, also of the words of the existence of a united body of christian brothers and sisters.
I missed this...I didn't go back to figure out who wrote it. My answer to the question posed is, "Absolutely!" Yes, I am non-denominational now.
My spiritual brothers and sisters are not identified by me as adherents to circumcision of the flesh or any other outward works of the law. And where two or three are gathered, Jesus promises to be there in our midst. I will take him at his word, but maybe you believe he was only fooling us. Besides, it isn't the fact of gathering that was the focus of Hebrews 10:19-25, it was the results that were important. I never found those results among Jehovah's Witnesses.
What do you do with the fact that Hebrews 10:19-25 makes it clear that the "let us" statements follow from a "therefore since" clause that only applies to adopted sons of God?
Hebrews 10:19-25 — Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.
As to the "unity" you pretend exists among Jehovah's Witnesses, it is a lie. I was a baptized Jehovah's Witnesses for 20 years, there is no unity except in their words. But the Bible specifically points to a different type of unity that would be experienced by the body of Christ (by the way, Governing Body dogma teaches that this term only applies to the anointed) would be a uniting in Christ. Paul calls the unifying force an indwelling of the spirit, he never indicates that an organization is responsible for uniting Christ's body.
Romans 8:9-11 — However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.
*** w86 2/15 pp. 19-20 “Bread of Life” Available for All ***
“In Union With Christ”
15 Jesus continues: “He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.” (John 6:56) This, then, is true of “anyone” who thus exercises faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, with the prospect of having ‘life in himself.’ All who manifest such faith can come to be “in union with” Jesus. Of course, the “great crowd,” having earthly hopes, are not “in union with Christ” in the sense of being joint heirs with him, members of his bride who receive a heavenly resurrection like his. (Romans 8:1, 10; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 11:2; Galatians 3:28, 29; Ephesians 1:1, 4, 11; Philippians 3:8-11) Yet all with earthly hopes can be, actually must be, in complete harmony with the Father and the Son in knowing and doing the “perfect will of God,” even as is true of the “little flock.”—Romans 12:2; compare John 17:21.Without the spirit dwelling in you, you do not belong to Christ. If the spirit dwells in you, you are an adopted son of God. There are no two classes of saved with two distinct destinies taught anywhere in the Bible.
Psalm 37 applied to the Israelites inheriting the "land" and living "to time indefinite" in it, and you were lied to about it.
Isaiah's prophecy was for Israel and its restoration into the promised land, and you were lied to about it.
The "other sheep" that are not "out of" or "from" this "yard" (acccording to the Greek words used) were the Gentiles who would also be brought into the same flock under one shepherd, no distinction between them at all in a spiritual sense, and you were lied to about it.
But don't feel too badly. The Pharisees lied to people, too. Quite successfully. They shut up the Kingdom of Heavens before men, too. They encouraged men to focus their efforts on dead works that lead to death, too. They also encouraged people to strictly obey them, instead of obeying the spirit of God and walking with its leadings. You are just another victim of liars who advance themselves as God's true channel of communication. The Bible directly points to a different channel.
1 John 2:26-29 — These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. 29 If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.
Wow! That same spirit that unites the Body of Christ also teaches those who are united! Not the Watchtower. Not the myriad of other books and tracts and blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum. The spirit. That is what unifies the body of Christ, and that is what teaches true Christians who have learned enough to listen to its leadings.
One more point: Adam cost life for all mankind, through Jesus' ransom the way to life was reopened. What killed Adam? The death of his relationship with God. What did Christ restore that would lead to life? The opportunity to reconcile (be brought back into a formerly estranged relationship) with God. (Romans, the whole book)
Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong about the theme of the Bible. The theme is not God's Kingdom. The theme is the loss of a relationship with God and its restoration.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul