by psycsnacha 101 Replies latest jw experiences
I'm kind of surprised that as a person with a degree in psychology, you've never encountered Lifton's work... it's considered to be practically fundamental basic social psychology "doctrine" (for lack of a better word).
And that coupled with the facts that he is unwilling to answer direct questions and is unaware of the term "unbaptized publisher" despite having been associated with the Dubz since grade school is why you should ignore him.
i can't figure out this quote feature or i'd quote you parlay, but i totally agree with you
i always felt like a hypocrite being expected to knock on doors and tell people to question their religion and beliefs, yet i was not "allowed" to question my own
psycsnacha,
I have sent you a Private Message addressing your first post and setting the stage for what follows. You are welcome to respond to the contents of that PM in the forum if you choose to. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/member/22872/inbox.ashx
Do you all accept that we are in the last days now (regardless if it started in 1914 or not)?
Do you all accept that Jehovah's spirit is guiding an earthly form of his kingdom now?
What are you thoughts on Jesus's words that "the good news will be preached in all of the inhabited earth, and then the end will come?"
I think I accept the WTS on a very few lines of evidence, despite all that is involved with studying with the JWs.
I agree with you on your assessment of the scant basis for your acceptance of their doctrine.
For instance, whether or not the answers to all three questions seem to direct attention to Jehovah's Witnesses the same chapters in the Bible from whence the first and third questions arise prove beyond all reasonable doubt that Jesus warned people away from organizations or people who were teaching what the Bible Students were teaching prior to 1925, and what Jehovah's Witnesses continue to teach to this day.
Matthew 24:23-28 — “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Mark 13:21-23 — “Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.
Luke 21:8-9 — He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them. 9 Furthermore, when YOU hear of wars and disorders, do not be terrified. For these things must occur first, but the end does not [occur] immediately.”
The Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses claim to know where Jesus is. Jehovah's Witnesses now claim that he is "in the inner chamber" and that only a very few recognized his presence in Kingdom power in 1914. However, up until the 1930s the Bible Students taught that Jesus returned in 1874 and that he began to rule as King in heaven in 1878.
So, we are supposed to believe that these servants of the King did not recognize the King's enthronement as having occurred in 1914 until many years after it occurred, but have complete confidence that they correctly identified the timing—or even the nature of the return. In 1874 they were foretelling a physical return in 1878, which turned into a spiritual enthronement and a physical return in 1914, which turned into a spiritual enthronement in 1914 and both 1874 and 1878 were eventually dropped from their dogma so completely that there is never any modern reference to those historical teachings.
Why does it matter whether 1914 is correct? Their entire authority structure and claim to divine guidance is based on an event that is supposed to have occurred 3½ years later in 1918. The way the current doctrine goes:
It is on this 1918 "choosing" that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses chooses to rest all its authority. If 1914 was not the time of Christ's enthronement, the Governing Body has no authority over anyone or anything. Even if the Bible Students got 1914 correct, there is NO evidence that Jehovah is using Jehovah's Witnesses to accomplish anything for him. Their doctrines contradict the Bible is some very basic ways.
(1) No one is supposed to speak to their King and High Priest, their savior, their repurchaser, their redeemer—this doctrine directly precludes the possibility of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 5; Romans 6-8)
(2) According to their doctrine, Jesus is not the mediator for all mankind. —Watchtower August 15, 1989, p. 30 Questions From Readers; Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986), pp. 9-11, pars. 14-16
Here is an excerpt that demonstrates a doctrinal lie, from Worldwide Security:
p. 10, par. 16It is as the apostle Paul wrote to his Christian fellow worker: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5) Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants. Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.
"Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No..." This is a lie. Moses was the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general, and you already know this to be true. You cannot explain what a Jewish proselyte is without proving their statement a lie. Any person from any nation could become a member of the nation of Israel, as long as they kept...the covenant of Moses, the Law. Moses was their mediator, and there was no distinction between a natural born Jew and a proselyte in the eyes of the law.
In the exact same way, the Bible portrays Jesus as the mediator for all mankind, not just a select 144,000.
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses shuts up the kingdom of heavens before men. (Matthew 24:13) This is not doctrine that is poorly understood or dificult to understand within the context of the Scriptures. Explaining it any other way is difficult to understand.
You seem very logical. Try answering this question: If, with the help of holy spirit, you can understand the Bible and can be motivated to share your understanding with others...why do you need an organization?
Here's another: Is an organization required for fellowship with others who understand the Bible and are motivated to share their understanding with others, and, if not...why do you need an organization?
And one last: Are voluminous amounts of literature needed to comprehend the basic message of the Bible, and, if not...why do you need a publishing company?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul (of the "I Don't Need An Organization" class)
Welcome! I am also studying with JWs, albeit under different circumstances!
Don't have time to write now but I'd like to mark this to get back to it later!
Welcome to the forum. There is a lot more to the WTS than the flaws that one would expect from a human organisation, they are actually trying to make a business out of religion so as to profit out of it. They are systematically lying to, deceiving and exploiting extensively their members.
This is not even a religion but a commercial enterprise, masquerading as a spiritual organisation that was appointed by God Himself to promote spirituality among mankind. Only, they don't know or more precisely want to know, what spiritual culture means.
Dear Psy -
Welcome. I am not here to try and point out the weakness of doctrine, because I do not believe that any one religion is right. It is my belief that it imperfect humans cannot really understand the spirit world or things that have happened prior to our life time. So the 607 debate, 1914 debate, the 1975 false alarm, the history of early bible students and its leaders, although, these things are interesting to me, I don't care enough to waste my time or anyone elses with the stuff.
But I would like to take you to your studies in psychology. In psychology there are studies covering cults and their system of breaking down and then rebuilding the person. Often times religions that isolate their members and create a persecution complex (us against them - mentality) can be harmful. The problem with ANY religion that encourages shunning and members to be judgmental, is very harmful not only to the members but also to those who have to deal with the members. This is my problem with the religion and any religion that encourage emtionally distructive behavoir.
Are you baptized? You said that you have been studying for 4 years, why so long? I thought JWs stopped studying with people if they were not baptized after a year. Sorry is this was addressed early, I did not read the enitre thread.
L_G
good discussion.
Thus far I have choosen not to answer direct questions because it would lead off into many tangents. I mainly wanted to feel out the group. If you have any specific questions for me feel free to message me. I'm not on trial at all so it was a bit disappointing to see those few who attempted to pick apart my words and speculate on the brief introduction of myself without context. very interesting - lol. Someone even said that I shouldn't be associated with here because I don't know what a baptised publisher is. That's funny because I am one. Let's please keep the discussion objective. Egos are ridiculous, I'm assuming we're all just trying to learn, so let it be.
An answer to one quesiton tho, I've been studying for so 'long' because dedication to Jehovah as I was taught, is personal and involves oneself and Jehovah. "Pressure" from those in the hall means absolutely nothing to me.
Plus, with the JWs matching cult theory. Wouldn't you say that the Mosaic law's governance over the Jews made them by the logic proposed here, a cult as well? They were taught to see those outside of the nation as 'outsiders' and to have little to no dealling with them as well. Many of the laws made some behaviors punishable by death, something that I would think would instill a bit of obedience by fear (if you choose to look at it like that). From what I've learned and witnessed within the JW organization, it seems to match the role God wanted his people in 'bible times' to play within their world. In fact, this 'cult' behavior of God's people as recorded in the bible may have been precisely why (or at least one of the reasons) they were persecuted by Jewish leaders and by Roman leaders such as Nero. Remember all of the sciptures about keeping 'without spot from the world?"
Anyway, like I said, good discussion. Feel free to message me.
Regarding the "increasing light" rational being a WTS excuse, the bible supports this. Consider Abel's knowledge of Jehovah, his qualities and his will for the future. Moses' knowledge verses David's. Solomons versus John the Baptizer. Jehovah's way of giving increasing knowledge to his servants over time is supported by the bible. Imagine the mistakes the apostle John made in attempting to explain his visions (later recorded in Revalations) to people of his time! He had no idea how these visions would be fulfilled, how could he possibly teach them.
I should really contain all of these thoughts into one post - lol.
I say again and this is NOT making excuses, it's perspective. The bible shows that Jehovah HAS used IMPERFECT people to carry out his will in the past. He has used both those who were dedicated to him as well as those who were not (the Babylonians and the Romans in bringing down the nation of Israel for example). This tells me that it is not necessarily the credibility of the people that I should look at to decide if Jehovah is working THROUGH them or not rather it is their works and how it fits with Bible prophecy. Right?
Regarding the 607 issue. That's interesting, I'll have to research that. It though would not change the fact that the Bible considers the times we live in now, the 'last days' which is the more important issue. I'm not interesting in subverting the truth, but I emphasize that my concern is, has always been, and will always be larger than the integrity of an organization which is only a vehicle guiding me to Jehovah.
psycsnacha said:
: Thus far I have choosen not to answer direct questions because it would lead off into many tangents.
But the devil is in the details, no?
On the other hand, you've posed quite a number of direct questions which have been well answered. Why the double standard?
: I mainly wanted to feel out the group.
If you're interested only in the emotional aspects, then don't post specific, direct questions about anything else. Otherwise you won't sound sincere.
: Plus, with the JWs matching cult theory. Wouldn't you say that the Mosaic law's governance over the Jews made them by the logic proposed here, a cult as well?
Absolutely! Today's fanatical Hasidic Jews are about as close as we today can get to the fanaticism of ancient Jewry. They're a cult by most definitions, and so are any fanatical Christians. But the majority of Christians are not in cults, since they don't display the fanaticism and aversion to reality that is the hallmark of cultism.
: Regarding the "increasing light" rational being a WTS excuse, the bible supports this.
Nonsense.
Now, if you want real discussion and not just a touchy feely bunch of words that avoid unpleasant details, you're going to have to do better than you have.
: The bible shows that Jehovah HAS used IMPERFECT people to carry out his will in the past. He has used both those who were dedicated to him as well as those who were not (the Babylonians and the Romans in bringing down the nation of Israel for example). This tells me that it is not necessarily the credibility of the people that I should look at to decide if Jehovah is working THROUGH them or not rather it is their works and how it fits with Bible prophecy. Right?
You've clearly been snookered by the JWs into their self-serving way of dealing with this question. It's not quite that simple. According to the Bible, God used Nebuchadnezzar to wreak havoc on the unfaithful Jews. Did that mean that people faithful to God had to pay allegiance to Nebuchadnezzar and obey his laws regarding religion or whatever to gain God's approval? Of course not. So the mere fact that God might use someone to accomplish some goal means nothing about whether that someone ought to be looked on as God's spokesman. And the latter is precisely what the JWs are all about. The Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses goes something like this: Thou shalt view the Governing Body as speaking directly for Jehovah and thou shalt obey it as thou wouldst Jehovah himself.
You don't believe this? Would you like to see some direct quotations from Watchtower literature to prove it? Or are you unconcerned with such details?
: Regarding the 607 issue. That's interesting, I'll have to research that.
Do yourself a favor and do your research apart from Watchtower literature. If you do a good job, and then go back to Watchtower literature, you'll see where the Society has deliberately left out all sorts of relevant information and engaged in flat out lying. A good example can be found on this board, in the threads on this subject participated in by a JW defender who calls himself "scholar". Use the Member Directory link at the top of this web page to find the most recent of such posts. You'll see that this charlatan consistently refuses to deal with the facts, and distorts what he doesn't ignore.
: It though would not change the fact that the Bible considers the times we live in now, the 'last days' which is the more important issue.
How do you know that? Because the Bible predicts that "the last days" would commence in 1914?
If you give the devil his due and look at the details, you'll find that almost nothing the Watchtower has claimed about 1914 or "the last days" is true. Here's a brief summary:
C. T. Russell first predicted that Armageddon would come not later than 1914, and probably as early as 1904 or so.
When 1904 passed without incident, Russell moved up his timetable a bit to 1910.
When 1910 passed, Russell focused more intensely on 1914 and changed some of his claims, such as that perhaps the Big A might come in 1915.
When what much later became known as World War I broke out, and nothing else happened to fulfill Russell's many claims, he claimed a win. But when 1914 ended and the world was still pretty much intact, he claimed that Armageddon would come by 1918.
After Russell died in 1916, his followers, with J. F. Rutherford at the helm, again predicted that 1918 would bring Armageddon.
As 1918 passed, they predicted that 1920 would see great fulfillments of Bible prophecy.
From 1918 through 1922, Rutherford's followers gradually became engaged in the "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" campaign, which was based on the prediction that 1925 would bring Armageddon.
By 1930, more than 3/4 of the Bible Students had quit because of Rutherford's and Russell's failed predictions and other failures.
Rutherford predicted the imminent end of the world once again in 1941.
Under N. H. Knorr, the Witnesses expected the end in sometime in the early 1950s.
Beginning in 1966, the Watchtower Society began predicting that 1975 would see Armageddon.
When that fell through, many JWs quit, seeing correctly that they had been deceived by a cult.
Later, various JWs expected "the end" in 1984, 1994 and 2000. The Society specifically stated the latter date in the January 1, 1989 edition of The Watchtower.
So, with such a record of false predictions and false interpretations of "Bible prophecy", why would you have any confidence in the Watchtower's claims about other supposed fulfillments?
Let's take their claims about major events that supposedly characterize these "last days" commencing in 1914. Supposedly, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes have been so much more severe than prior to 1914 that no one with normal powers of observation could fail to see it. But the facts say different. The 20th century has arguably been at most slightly above the 19th century in per capita deaths due to war. So there's not much change there. However, deaths due to famine and pestilence are reduced significantly in absolute numbers, and drastically in per capita numbers compared to the 19th century. The risk of dying in an earthquake is between two and four times lower today than in previous centuries.
You don't believe any of this? Consider the effects that drastic increases in major causes of death would have on world population. So many would be dying prematurely that population would necessarily decrease. But the population explosion of the 20th century completely blows away any claims that unusually massive die-offs due to war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes are occurring. In fact, the average life span today is far higher than a century ago.
Care to deal with the details?
: I'm not interesting in subverting the truth, but I emphasize that my concern is, has always been, and will always be larger than the integrity of an organization which is only a vehicle guiding me to Jehovah.
But it's not even such a vehicle. First, by falsely claiming to be God's exclusive spokesmen on earth today, JW leaders have disqualified themselves from validly making such a claim. It's easy to demonstrate that they've deliberately lied about any number of subjects. These are not mere mistakes that all humans are prone to -- they're much bigger than that.
For example, the Society claims that it is justified in constantly crying "Wolf!" as shown above with its many false predictions. It has published books with titles like, The Time Is At Hand, The Kingdom Is At Hand, God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached, and so forth. But as AuldSoul quoted above, the Bible directly condemns such actions:
Jesus said: "Look out that you are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them." Luke 21:8
Can you face the devilish details that this scripture sets forth? Or are you interested in denying the facts?
Consider also this: doesn't the Bible say that he who is unfaithful in what is least will be unfaithful in much? It's almost trivial to demonstrate that JW leaders have been extremely unfaithful in all manner of details concerning all manner of subjects. Can you get around the Bible's direction here, and still claim that JW leaders are God's exclusive spokesmen?
AlanF
