Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • By_Blood_Immortal
    By_Blood_Immortal

    Does this mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah? God is often used in a personal way, as a quazi proper name. Here it is not used that way, but rather it refers to a position that Jesus held over Thomas. Jesus was "god" to Thomas, but this does not make him God as in the Almighty. There is a necessary distinction that must be draw, for the word QEOS (god) carries with it different senses.

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    Yes I do mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah. A well formed point, but if this were the case, the word "God" would be lower case, which it clearly is not.

    ----------------------------- Since Jesus was given the authority to resurrect the dead. The spirit is the life force, for force that animates the body. For Jesus to resurrect one it is necessary for him to return that life force to the person, and so Stephen trusts him with it.

    -----------------------------

    I do believe that the prophet Elisha resurrected a boy from the dead, should we commit our spirits to him? He was obviously given the authority to resurrect the dead.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Greendawn:

    The question is can he be some kind of god apart from the Father?

    Is that the question? Isn't it rather, can God be the Father without the Son?

    The Father is God in the absolute way and the son in a limited way though very far above all creation.

    So what happens when junior grows up?

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    Mondo1...Finally, we might consider Jesus' words of John 8:54. "Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, whom you say is your God."
    Ellderwho: Why does Jesus have glory?

    Why wouldn't he? He is our savior. Glory isn't something exclusive to God.

    Mondo

    Your response:

    First, what does the fact that God does not give **his** glory to another have to do with another receiving glory that is not God's glory?
    Lets look at what Jesus says regarding your response:

    Joh 17:5

     So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.(nwt)

    Looks like Christ is alongside the father with some of the Fathers glory.

    Second, your savior passage is entirely out of context, there contrasting God with the idol god's of the nations. You cannot remove a passage from its context and argue by that.

    I have not removed anything entirely from context. When Paul quotes the OT is he out of context because the point being made does not use the storyline or example from which it is quoted from?

    It is an abuse of Scripture. I would suggest you read the book of Judges, where a number of "saviors" are refered to, and properly called such. For example, Ehud was "a savior."

    Abuse? Your argument is with scripture not me.

    There is no issue with calling others saviors, but we recognize that God is always the source of the salvation.
    Your making your point mute. Ask yourself, who is worthy of Gods Glory?
    Little food for thought:

    Jud 1:25

    to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.

  • BelieverInJesus
    BelieverInJesus

    "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." (I John 5:7)

    In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness...."

    Mondo1...I appreciate your acceptance that Jesus is not Michael. It's a real shame when JW's beleive everything, I mean everything that the cult leaders tell them. They don't even think things through logically in their head, they just allow the brainwashing to occur. Then go door to door, knocking on peoples doors, telling them "Jesus is Michael, he's not God!" Which is blasphemous.

    Also....

    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

    Exodus 3:14 God tells moses "tell themI AM sent you."

    John 18:5 When they were looking for Jesus, Jesus said to them "I AM HE." then they drew back and fell to the ground!

    I believe whether you are a trinitarian, quaditarian, quintatarian or whatever, it really doesn't matter when compared to "Who is Jesus to you?" If he is God, then your saved from what Roman's 10:9 says.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    Does this mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah? God is often used in a personal way, as a quazi proper name. Here it is not used that way,

    Phi 2:6

    who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    By_Blood_Immortal,

    You write: Yes I do mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah. A well formed point, but if this were the case, the word "God" would be lower case, which it clearly is not.

    Response: Incorrect. The Greek text makes no distinction, neither does the Hebrew. For example, in Psa. 45:6 we read of the Jewish King, who is the subject of that chapter, and he is called "God" and yet it is generally translated as "God."

    You write: I do believe that the prophet Elisha resurrected a boy from the dead, should we commit our spirits to him? He was obviously given the authority to resurrect the dead.

    Response: This was not a true resurrection as in what will happen in the last days, when Christians are raised to immortality. This was simply a temporary restoration of life. Elisha has no authority over that, Jesus does, so this is a case of apples and oranges.

    Mondo

  • BelieverInJesus
    BelieverInJesus

    FLASH YOU WROTE...

    I have to disagree. Jesus is God's first creation and His Master Worker.

    I hope you will look these up. I did, thanks! IRON SHARPENS IRON!

    Colossians 1: 13 ~19, Proverbs 8: 25~36

    John 14: 28 and 20: 17, 1Corinthians 15: 24~28

    Jesus and God are equal. They have different roles however. Here on earth, Jesus led an example of a humble strong servant to God. He is our earthly picture of how to live our life. He has a different role in the trinity. Look here..

    Philipians 2:5-7 "Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing, he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form."

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    ellderwho,

    Let us look at what you had to say. You write:
    -------------------------
    Joh 17:5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.(nwt)

    Looks like Christ is alongside the father with some of the Fathers glory.
    ------------------

    Careful in your exegesis there my friend. It says nothing of him having "some of the Fathers glory." It speaks of Jesus having glory "alongside" the Father. The Greek word is PARA, which here simply means "with." For example, if you look up into the sky at night you see the stars, and the glory of the stars. From man's perspective on the earth, we look up and see them "with" eachother. They each have glory with eachother, but there is no thought of them sharing eachothers glory. It is a glory unique to each one.

    ----------------------------------
    I have not removed anything entirely from context. When Paul quotes the OT is he out of context because the point being made does not use the storyline or example from which it is quoted from?
    -------------------------

    Yes you did remove it from context, because you attempted to apply the text in a way that had nothing to do with what was being discussed in context. Paul also quoted texts out of context too, because the language applied properly to the situation. But there is a difference. When Paul quoted out of context, he was merely borrowing the language, he was not attempting to make a point that was untrue outside of the original context.

    ----------------------------------
    Abuse? Your argument is with scripture not me.
    -------------------

    If that is the case, why did you not address my point. Here it is again for you. I said: "I would suggest you read the book of Judges, where a number of "saviors" are refered to, and properly called such. For example, Ehud was "a savior.""

    ---------------------------
    Jud 1:25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.
    ---------------------------

    I am starting to see is a trend amoung Trinitarians in a blatent abuse of this text. The problem for the Trinitarian is that this is a doxology, not expressing events that have already transpired, but the author's own desire. The past reference, literally translates to "before the age," only places emphasis on Jude's desire for these things to be attributed to God and has nothing to do with Christ being eternal himself.

    Mondo

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    BelieverInJesus,

    You state: "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." (I John 5:7)

    Reply: That is a known spurious text, not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 15th century. Using texts that are *added* to the Bible does not help your case.

    You state: In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness

    Reply: Has nothing to do with God being Triune.

    You state: Mondo1...I appreciate your acceptance that Jesus is not Michael. It's a real shame when JW's beleive everything, I mean everything that the cult leaders tell them. They don't even think things through logically in their head, they just allow the brainwashing to occur. Then go door to door, knocking on peoples doors, telling them "Jesus is Michael, he's not God!" Which is blasphemous.

    Reply: Actually there are many Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is both Michael and God. The Bible is clear though in that Jesus isn't God, but God's son.

    You state: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

    Reply: 1 Corinthians 3 tells us that "he that plants [Paul] and he that waters [Apollos] are one." What of it?

    You state: Exodus 3:14 God tells moses "tell themI AM sent you."

    Reply: First, the verb EHYEH is better translated "I will be," which is the same word that is just about always translated that way in Exodus 3:12. Second, Jesus never used the words in that sense.

    You state: John 18:5 When they were looking for Jesus, Jesus said to them "I AM HE." then they drew back and fell to the ground!

    Reply: Let us look at that in context. Verse 4 tells us that Jesus asks whom they are looking for. Verse 5 presents them responding, stating "Jesus the Nazarene." Just then says, "I am he." Or, "I am that one." Who? Jesus the Nazarene. He only told him that he was the one they were looking for. This is normal grammar here. Nothing special about Jesus words. Look at John 9:9 to see what I mean.

    You state: I believe whether you are a trinitarian, quaditarian, quintatarian or whatever, it really doesn't matter when compared to "Who is Jesus to you?" If he is God, then your saved from what Roman's 10:9 says.

    Incorrect. Romans 10:9 says you will be saved if you believe he is Lord. Says nothing about "God." I suggest you consider Acts 2:36, which states that "God made him Lord..."

    Mondo

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    BelieverInJesus,

    I thought you knew a little Greek? How could you quote such a gross mistranslation of Phil. 2:6???

    You quoted it as saying: "Though he was God." The text does not say that at all. That is shocking and rather sickening it is so poorly translated.

    Mondo

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