Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

fjtoth

Lilly,
I clearly said the words in Daniel and Revelation are not exactly the same
I agree, and I'm sorry for misreading you on that point.
It is such a simple question I asked and so far only Mondo has given me any answer.
Your "simple" question was not a question. It was a dogmatic statement:
Jesus is in the OT many times it is just that he was not given the name Jesus until his birth on earth. Some ancient people who saw and spoke with the pre-human Jesus were Daniel, Isaiah, King David, Abraham and I know there were others.
Despite my efforts to show that your belief is not Bible-based, you feel inclined to hold to it. You have freedom to make that choice, but don't get upset just because I prefer the Bible's clear statement on the matter and because I've tried to help you to see there is a better way than the one you've chosen.
Sincerely,
Frank
jschwehm

IF you are saying Christ never spoke in the OT, I would find that hard to believe. Why can't the texts that say OT people saw God be Christ the image of God?
Hi Lovelylil:
Have you heard of the Theophanies of the Old Testament? The book Trinity Evidence and Issues by Robert Morey lists many of them. In short, when Yahweh appears to individuals in the Old Testament many Trinitarian scholars speculate that this was God the Son who appeared to them. The interesting thing is that in the New World Translation you can see these Theophanies pretty clearly because of the way they translate certain verses.
If you look at Genesis 16, you will see the situation where Hagar is running from Sarai. The text says throughout that Jehovah's angel is speaking with her. However, Jehovah's angel says things like "I shall greatly multiply your seed". If we understand that to be an angel (as in a mere spirit creature) speaking then that is blasphemous in that it is my understanding that the Jewish people would believe that only God can give life and not a mere angel (creature).
The fascinating thing is Hagar's response to this encounter in verse 13 where she says:
"Then she began to call the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her; "You are a God of sight", for she said: "Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me?" New World Translation
Other translations will translate this verse some what differently:
"So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God of seeing"; for she said, "Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?" Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
It appears that Hagar believes that she actually saw and spoke to God Himself. She is shocked by that of course because she believes that no one can actually see God and live.
In any case, encounters like these between God (or God behaving as his own messenger/angel ) and humans in the Old Testament are known as theophanies. Some theologians based on what John 1:18 says:
"No one has ever seen God; the only Son (some manuscripts say the only God), who is in the bosom position of the Father, he has made him known."
believe that when Jehovah behaved as His own Angel or Messenger and interacted directly with humans that it was actually the second person of the Trinity that did this.
Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
lovelylil

Jeff,
Thanks so much for the information. Could you pm me with any other information about this you think would he helpful. I am doing research on this very topic. I also started a new thread, could you add your comments there too if you don't mind?
The only thing I was stating as fact is that the old testament prophets I was referring to did believe like Jeff said that they "saw and spoke to God himself" that is why I emphatically stated it had to be Jesus. I said it was Jesus because it could not have been God and it was not an Angel. Where Angels were used in the OT, the verse clearly identifies them as such.
Like Jeff said the bible says "no one has seen the father" - that is exactly my point. Then if it were not an Angel, and not God himself, why can't some consider that it was Christ? If the OT people said it was God, why are we trying to say it was not? The only one in God's image we can substitute here is Jesus.
And if they did not ever see Jesus in his pre-human form, why not? What was he doing in heaven that he was totally silent? Please answer this in the new thread I began. Thanks Lilly
fjtoth

Jeff,
JWs teach that Jesus was the archangel Michael, and Trinitarians ridicule them for that. Aren't you doing what the JWs do by saying God lowered himself to the station of an angel?
I don't understand theophanies in the way that you do. Angels claimed to be God himself because they were his agents, sent by him to speak and act for him. Solomon acknowledged that 'the heaven of the heavens cannot contain God, much less the temple on earth.' So it appears contradictory to me to say in one breath that God is as great as Solomon said but in another breath to say that he has come down here and literally appeared to men and women. Not always, but most of the time within the context, an angel is identified as the real speaker when we read about God speaking personally with humans. Lilly's problem, as I see it, is that she wants the context to mention an angel in every case. That should not be necessary since a Bible reader in time gets to see the normal pattern that occurs.
The idea that Christ came and spoke with humans in pre-Christian times is not allowed by Hebrews 1:1, 2, and other passages.
Frank
lovelylil

Frank,
Now I am not a bible reader? Because I asked a question for some research? Please refrain from making personal judgements about people you do not know anything about. If you read many of my posts on this forum you will see ample scriptures used. You are a Christian correct? Then act like one.
You are doing yourself what you are accusing me of doing. You say I am trying to prove my point and yet it is you trying to prove I am wrong by ignoring any of my questions and making accusations that are not true. If you do not have an answer just say so. But stop throwing up smokescreens and trying to correct others who are trying to answer my question (like Jeff and Mondo)
Will you please forget Hebrews for one single second and answer this question:
We know Jesus existed prior to coming to earth, correct? Then why is there nothing attributed to him in word or deed in the old testament? As a matter of fact, please go to the new thread I started and answer this q there. I am not talking about prophecies he fulfilled, nor OT types and symbols he represented. But actual words and deeds he performed in heaven?
I am framing the question according to the setting you agree with. You are saying that according to your verse you keep jumping on in Hebrews Jesus NEVER spoke to anyone prior to coming to earth. But yet we know he was in heaven. And the OT writers wrote a lot about heaven and God and conversations with God and YET Jesus is totally absent. Not one word is attributed to him and no one ever saw him, is this your position?
If so can you explain WHY?
fjtoth

Lilly,
Now I am not a bible reader? Because I asked a question for some research? Please refrain from making personal judgements about people you do not know anything about. If you read many of my posts on this forum you will see ample scriptures used. You are a Christian correct? Then act like one.
I did not accuse you of not being a Bible reader. Maybe you're getting a bit tired and touchy. I merely explained why it should not be necessary to have an angel mentioned in every case where we are told that God himself spoke to someone in pre-Christian times. Acceptance of Hebrews 2:2, 3 should also suffice. However, I do believe you have a problem with your Bible reading. The Bible says God spoke through angels and prophets. Nowhere does it say he spoke through Jesus. Though there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that indicates God spoke through Jesus, that is what you want to believe. As I said, you have freedom to believe that if you want to, but it is a groundless belief. It is something the Watchtower teaches, but it has no basis in the Bible.
it is you trying to prove I am wrong by ignoring any of my questions and making accusations that are not true.
I believe I have tried earnestly to answer every question you have asked. Tell me which one(s) I ignored. I'm of the impression you are not carefully reading my answers since you keep repeating the same point over and over, no matter how I try to approach it with a simple answer.
Will you please forget Hebrews for one single second
This, I believe is the real crux of your problem. When the Bible gives you a plain, easy-to-understand answer, you don't want to accept it because it conflicts with what you want to believe.
why is there nothing attributed to him in word or deed in the old testament?
Why does there have to be something attributed to him in the OT? The focus of the OT is on God, not on anyone else. There are many prophecies concerning the Messiah, and I think that should be sufficient for us.
And the OT writers wrote a lot about heaven and God and conversations with God and YET Jesus is totally absent.
Where are all these OT comments about what takes place in heaven?
You and I have gone on and on about your view of who spoke for God in the OT. I will not change my mind from what the Scriptures say. I believe you also have no intentions of changing your thinking, despite what the Bible says. So I'm getting more and more of the opinion that the discussion is going to end as useless and fruitless. I want to assure you that my motive here is to help, not to be antagonistic. I'm answering your questions the best I know how. I may upset you because I'm trying to get right to the point rather than utilizing many words. I'm sorry for not doing a better job at trying to come across as a friend.
Sincerely,
Frank
Eyebrow2

Jesus was this really hot exchange student from Spain that I went to high school with.
Nice guy. Didn't speak any English when he came over though. He got someone else to complete his forms and do the interview for him. It was quite funny. He got to stay anyway and could speak English pretty well by the end of the school year.
He was quite a guy. That's the only real Jesus I know.
Viva Espana!
myelaine

dear bubble...
"If God/Jesus loves us so much why doesn't he make it clear in black and white who he actually is. "
because God likes to add colors...specifically...red...
love michelle
LittleToe

Inquisitor:But you'll agree that the Trinity wasn't explicitly mentioned in the first post, wherein others have jumped on the Divinity debate to their own [anti-]trinitarian ends?
Navigator:
The position that makes sense to me is one stated by Charles Fillmore, the founder of the Unity movement when he was asked that very same question: His reply was:
"Jesus was NOT God! However, he so gave up his sense of personal self and so identified with his Father God that it becomes difficult to tell where God leaves off and Jesus begins."
Alternatively, the following works just as well, and makes even more sense of some of those difficult Divinity passages:
"Jesus was God! However, he so humbled himself and shrouded his glory in flesh, yet continuing to identify with his Father God, that it becomes difficult to tell where God leaves off and Jesus begins."
Lil:
Several years ago I stopped even attemping to discuss the subject with Frank. He isn't interested in listening the the whole debate, prefering to denigrate those who hold a position contrary to his. Ergo I haven't addressed him in this thread. His comprehension of Hebrews is limited to a few well-worn verses that he beats like a drum, while ignoring that he's out of step with the rest of the [Hebrews] orchestra.
Deputy Dog

Mondo
Can you tell me who raised Jesus from the dead?
D Dog

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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