by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible
Mondo:
I can't believe somebody would post a link to one such as Macgregor Ministries.
That was condescending! All he did was post a few links that had helped him along the way.
Are your really setting yourself up as the font of all knowledge, with irrefutable arguments andd unassailable positions? If so you may need to revisit the dictionary definition for "interpretation", which is the best offering you really have...
...though I wouldn't want to be dogmatic about that
Mondo,
I will say it again, you are not answering the question of the speaker change. Probably because you know in your heart that there is not a speaker change.
I'm not side stepping. You are! I've already explained. What testimony is he talking about? The one from the previous verses. He says he coming. Then the auther says..."Amen, Come Lord Jesus." The one and only speaker calls himself the A & O, Beginning and End, First and Last Jesus. The more I continue looking at this verse, the more confident I am in that Jesus is refering to himself as the A & O, B & E, F & L. It's just obvious and clear. When I had those JW's over at my house and I showed them this verse, they didn't know what to say either. So they changed the subject. Then they went on to tell me only 144,000 will go to heaven and Jesus is Michael....I then could not stop laughing, I felt so rude to laugh in their face, but come-on! give me a break. I know they don't really believe that themselves!! Who are they kidding?!?
Hellrider,
Hey man, your right, I did sound like a televangilist. I should watch what I say and how I say it. The bible clearly teaches us that we have "Hope" in Jesus. I guess it's can sound errogant to say know this, know that. I do have hope. And I do believe I will be in Heaven one day with Jesus.
BIJ:
I know you mean well, but you're tripping every "trigger" in the book, with this particular group of exCultists, as we were the people who used to call at your door, remember?
We have been programmed from birth to refute nigh on every point you raise, and trained to deflect your precise arguments from scripture (however inaccurately abused). Unless you can think of a fresh approach you may be doing more harm than good.
It's just obvious and clear.
THere's no such thing in exegesis. That's why we're still arguing about it 2000 years after the event...
Just a word to the wise
Believer:
Hellrider,
Hey man, your right, I did sound like a televangilist. I should watch what I say and how I say it. The bible clearly teaches us that we have "Hope" in Jesus. I guess it's can sound errogant to say know this, know that. I do have hope. And I do believe I will be in Heaven one day with Jesus.
It`s all good. I respect faith, hope and love.
funkyderek wrote:
*** Jesus is a character in the bestselling compilation of mythology "The Bible". He is considered by many to be an integral part of the work, but makes his first appearance more than halfway through, in the "New Testament", a controversial add-on to the original tome. Remarkably, there are four accounts of his life, all similar but contradictory. It is believed the editors chose these four from dozens of contenders because they best matched the theme of the rest of the book. These four accounts contain some clever nods to the original "Old Testament" with the life of Jesus neatly paralleling events in the lives of some of the earlier characters. The "New Testament" also contains several letters which mention Jesus, but appear to be speaking of a completely different person.
Jesus is probably the most popular character from the Bible, and has fan clubs all over the world. Jesus merchandise is widely available and comes in a variety of sizes, shapes and styles (the most common being representations of his execution) and some cities have even erected statues in his honour. ***
That has to be the best description of Christianity I have ever heard! LOL! A good explanation of Jesus can be found here: http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter16.html
And here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/
Dave
BelieverInJesus,
I made a very clear point and you have repeatedly avoided it. Revelation 22:16 uses the personal pronoun with a proper noun, a use that only occurs three times in the book of Revelation, both other times to show a speaker change. This is seen in Rev. 1:9, 22:8 and also 22:16. The fact that Jesus is said to be coming does not mean that another is not also coming. Further, Revelation 1:8 demands that the Father be "the Alpha and Omega," which of course would not mean the son couldn't in some way be called it, but it shows that the Father here is. (For Rev. 1:8 identifies the speaker as "he who is, who was and who is coming," who is spoken of on Rev 1:4, while 1:5 says "and Jesus Christ," showing Jesus to be one other than this one.)
Mondo
LittleToe,
My comment was not based upon Biblical interpretation, but a simply dealing with facts and figures.
Mondo
EW and LT
I don't believe that the Trinity doctrine is a salvation issue, but IMHO a good understanding of it certainly answers many of the conundrums that scripture presents. It was a position I arrived at through bible-reading alone, prior to involvement with any church or Christian group.I think Im there with you Bro-Toe. Esspecially the conumdrums part.
John 8:24 (LITV):
Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.John 8:58 (LITV):
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!Jesus declared that it was a salvation issue, THE salvation issue, whether or not a person believes that Jesus Christ is God (the "Deity of Christ"). Now, it may not be a salvation issue to understand the relationship between The Father, Son, and Spirit, but it is definitely a salvation issue to believe (or not believe) that Jesus is God.
UnDisfellowshipped,
The words I am, in Greek, EGW EIMI, are nothing special and are not a claim to deity. In fact, John 8:24 and 58 use those two words in completely different ways within the sentences. 8:24's use compares to John 9:9 where the blind man used the words also with an implied predicate, while 58 uses eimi in the sense of "exist."
Mondo
Mondo1,
You said:
I can't believe somebody would post a link to one such as Macgregor Ministries. I've read there material and scholarship and exegesis is something that is entirely missing. Most unfortunate that ones actually buy into stuff that is so easily proven untrue.
Would you care to "disprove" any of the info on the web pages I posted? Please I am dying to know where the horrible scholarship and exegesis is. I challenge you to disprove something on any of those web pages. That shouldn't be too hard for you, should it, seeing that you must be a master of scholarship and an expert at exegesis?
The Bible teaches this about worldly wisdom:
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (ESV)
: For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (ESV):
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God .Matthew 13:54-56 (LITV):
And coming into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, Where did this One get this wisdom, and the powerful works? Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And are not His sisters all with us? From where then did this One get all these things?John 7:15-18 ("A Conservative Version"):
The Jews therefore marveled, saying, How does this man know scholarly material, not having learned? Jesus therefore answered them and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me. If any man wants to do his will, he will know about the doctrine, whether it is from God, or I speak from myself. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him, this man is true, and unrighteousness is not in him.John 7:47-49 (LITV):
Then the Pharisees answered them, Have you not also been deceived? Not any from the rulers or from the Pharisees believed into Him have they ? But not knowing the Law, this crowd is cursed.Acts 4:13 (LITV):
But beholding the boldness of Peter and John, and having perceived that they are untaught and uneducated men, they marveled. And they recognized them, that they were with Jesus.Matthew 11:25-26 (LITV):
Answering at that time, Jesus said, I praise You, Father, Lord of Heaven and of earth, because You hid these things from the sophisticated and cunning and revealed them to babes. Yes, Father, for so it was pleasing before You.In the New Testament, it was the Jewish leaders and Pharisees who were judging and condemning people for not having gone to the schools or for not having official training. Jesus did not have special earthly training. Most of the 12 Apostles did not have special earthly training. Jesus even made a prayer to His Father, THANKING God for hiding the Gospel from the "sophisticated" and revealing it to "babes."
I'm not saying it's wrong to learn as much as you can about the Bible and the Bible languages, exegesis, etc. I'm just saying that the Apostles used "simple" language, words given to them by The Holy Spirit, when they preached the Gospel.
Instead of attacking the person(s) writing the articles on those web pages, why don't you actually show us something that can be disproved? Here is what Wikipedia says under "Personal Attack" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack :
Mondo1 also said:Generally, a personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when examining another person's claims or comments. It is considered a personal attack when a person starts referencing a supposed flaw or weakness in an individual's personality , beliefs , lifestyle , convictions or principles , and use it as a debatetactic or as a means of avoiding discussion of the relevance or truthfulness the person's statement. It works on the reasoning that, by discrediting the source of a logical argument , namely the person making it, the argument itself can be weakened.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. No matter how morally repugnant a person might be, he or she can still make true claims. For example:
Witness: "I saw X murder the shopkeeper."
Defense attorney: "Isn't it true that you are a convicted felon?"
On the other hand, illuminating real character flaws and inconsistencies in the position of an opponent are a vital part of the public political process and of the adversarial judicial process. Use of a personal attack in a logical argument constitutes a
logical fallacy called ad hominem , a term that comes from a Latin phrase meaning "toward the man".
As for worship, Jesus indeed receives it, but he receives it because God exalted him, not because he is God. This is explicitly defined in Phil. 2:9-11. It does not contradict God's command not to worship others, part of the Old Testament law that we are not under, because God is the one that commands that Jesus receives it. (Heb. 1:6)
Where does the Bible ever say that Christians are not under God's Command to worship Him ALONE? What do you base that claim on? Jesus repeated this Commandment (Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8). Do you also claim that Christians are not under God's Moral Laws, such as "You shall not murder," "You shall not covet," and "You shall not commit adultery"? Are Christians still under those commands or not? If they are, then why are they under those laws, but not under God's Command to worship only Him?
If Jesus is not God, then who or what exactly do you claim that He was? An angel? Do you believe Jesus is a created being? If so, the Apostle Paul condemned worshiping any creature at Romans 1:25. The Apostle Paul said that Christians must NOT worship angels (Colossians 2:18). The Book of Revelation also clearly teaches not to worship any created angels (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9).
Do you believe Jesus was just a human? If so, the New Testament also condemns worshiping humans (Acts 10:25-26).
The New Testament repeatedly condemns idolatry:
1 Corinthians 10:20-22 (LITV):
But the things the nations sacrifice, " they sacrifice to demons, and not to God." But I do not want you to become sharers of demons; you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and a cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord, and a table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?2 Corinthians 6:16 (LITV):
And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are a temple of the living God, even as God said, "I will" dwell in them and "walk among them , and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."What is your definition of "idolatry" as described in the New Testament?
Also, while Jesus was on earth, before His death, the Mosaic Law Covenant was still in force. How do you explain the JEWISH people worshiping Jesus at that time? Wouldn't that have been in violation of the Command to worship only YHWH, if Jesus is not YHWH? (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38)
Here are a couple of other questions I have for you:
If Jesus was created by God, then how did Jesus exist before ALL things were created? (Colossians 1:16-18) If Jesus was created by God, then how did God created all things through Jesus? (John 1:3)
Also, if God created all things through Jesus (as stated in John 1:3), then how did God also create all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF? (Isaiah 44:24)
Mondo1 said:
The words I am, in Greek, EGW EIMI, are nothing special and are not a claim to deity. In fact, John 8:24 and 58 use those two words in completely different ways within the sentences. 8:24's use compares to John 9:9 where the blind man used the words also with an implied predicate, while 58 uses eimi in the sense of "exist."
I will comment more on this as soon as I can. But for now, I will be brief in my reply.
I agree that those words by themselves are nothing special. It is the context that one uses those words that determine if they had a special meaning.
If a person in the first century had wanted to write God's Name/Title "I AM" from Exodus 3:14 in Greek, how would it have been written?
If Jesus simply meant that He existed before Abraham in John 8:58, then why did the Jews try to stone Him for blasphemy? It was not against Jewish law to claim to be an angel was it? It was only against Jewish law to claim to be God or equal to God. So, no matter what you claim Jesus was saying in John 8:58, the Jews clearly understood that He was using the Divine Name "I AM" found in Exodus 3:14.
Also, let's say, for the sake of argument, you are right about John 8:24, and Jesus was actually saying "I Am He." (Compare with Isaiah 43:10) What is your interpretation of that? What did Jesus mean? It was obviously a very serious matter. Jesus said that they were all going to "die in their sins" if they did "not believe that I AM [He]."
Also, "I AM HE" was a title/name of YHWH in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 41:4, 43:10, 43:13, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, 52:6)
