Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

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Mondo1 said:
You have to demonstrate that God means something special and theological and that he is not using it as a linking verb, just as everyone else would use it as such. You have to demonstrate that these sentences use it in a unique way, or your argument is completely invalid.

God said to Moses, [...] "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
'I AM has sent me to you.'"
You said before that God was not using "I AM" as a Name in Exodus 3:14. Yet, God told Moses, "Say ... 'I AM has sent me to you.' " That is most definitely not the normal way of using "I AM." Normal people do not tell others "I AM has sent you," rather they would say "I sent you."
If God was not using "I AM" as a Name in Exodus 3:14, then why did God reply to Moses' question ("What is your Name?") by saying "I AM WHO I AM" and "Tell them 'I AM has sent me'"?
If God was not using "I AM" as a Name in Exodus 3:14, then He would have told Moses, "Say to the people of Israel, He has sent me" OR "God has sent me" or "YHWH has sent me."
It is not normal or natural to say to someone, "Say to this people, 'I AM has sent me.'"
Mondo1 also said:
Mondo1 said:
Notice that she says, "I and no one else." Literally this would be, "I and only I." In other words, "I'm the greatest among the nations. None of the others compare to me." This would not be a claim to be Jehovah, for such a claim would make little sense given the speaker. It would not be a claim to be the most high God, for to Babylonians, that was Marduk. Albert Barnes hits the nail on the head... he states: "The language of pride. She regarded herself as the principal city of the world, and all others as unworthy to be named in comparison with her."
But compare those verses to the following verse, where YHWH says that a the king of Babylon DOES want to be God:

Isaiah 14:13 (ESV):
You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
Also compare the following:

Ezekiel 28:9 (Revised Version):
Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou art man, and not God, in the hand of him that woundeth thee.
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Mondo1, you quoted from Albert Barnes' commentary. Have you read what he said about John 8:58 and 59? Please do so:

Joh 8:58 - Verily, verily - This is an expression used only in John. It is a strong affirmation denoting particularly the great importance of what was about to be affirmed. See the notes at
Joh_3:5 .
Before Abraham was - Before Abraham lived. I am - The expression I am, though in the present tense, is clearly designed to refer to a past time. Thus, in Psa_90:2 , "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God." Applied to God, it denotes continued existence without respect to time, so far as he is concerned. We divide time into the past, the present, and the future. The expression, applied to God, denotes that he does not measure his existence in this manner, but that the word by which we express the present denotes his continued and unchanging existence. Hence, he assumes it as his name, "I AM," and "I AM that I AM," Exo_3:14 . Compare Isa_44:6 ; Isa_47:8 . There is a remarkable similarity between the expression employed by Jesus in this place and that used in Exodus to denote the name of God. The manner in which Jesus used it would strikingly suggest the application of the same language to God. The question here was about his pre-existence. The objection of the Jews was that he was not 50 years old, and could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet 50 years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of John Joh_1:1 , that he was in the beginning with God, and was God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John relies to prove that he was the Messiah Joh_20:31 , to establish which was the design of writing this book.

Joh 8:59 - Then took they up stones - It seems they understood him as blaspheming, and proceeded, even without a form of trial, to stone him as such, because this was the punishment prescribed in the law for blasphemy,
Lev_24:16. See Joh_10:31. The fact that the Jews understood him in this sense is strong proof that his words naturally conveyed the idea that he was divine. This was in the temple. Herod the Great had not yet completed its repairs, and Dr. Lightfoot has remarked that stones would be lying around the temple in repairing it, which the people could easily use in their indignation.Jesus hid himself - See Luk_4:30 . That is, he either by a miracle rendered himself invisible, or he so mixed with the multitude that he was concealed from them and escaped. Which is the meaning cannot be determined.
Kenneson

God's Wisdom is eternal. No need to create what always existed.
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Also look at Albert Barnes' comment on God's use of "I AM HE" in Isaiah 48:12:
"I am he - I am the same; or I am the true and only God."
Barnes listed one of the possible meanings of "I am He" from Isaiah 48:12 as "I am the true and only God." Why is that?
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Kenneson,
Exactly!
If Jesus was the "Wisdom" personified in Proverbs Chapter 8, and IF, as non-Trinitarians claim, Jesus was created by God, then that means God had to create wisdom, and at some point in the past God was without wisdom!
Look what John Gill's Commentary on Proverbs 8:22 says:
Pro 8:22
- The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,.... Not "created me", as the Targum and the Septuagint version; which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine; who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of eternity; and by whom he made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created; and if as such he was created, God must have been without his Wisdom before he was created; besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God, is the Creator of all things, and not created, Joh_1:1 ; but this possession is not in right of creation, as the word is sometimes used, Gen_4:1 ; it might be more truly rendered, "the Lord begat me", as the word is translated by the Septuagint in Zec_13:5 ; it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was "in the beginning of his way" of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and "in the beginning of his way" of grace, which was before his way of creation; he began with him when he first went out in acts of grace towards his people; his first thoughts, purposes, and decrees concerning their happiness, were in him; the choice of their persons was made in him; God was in him contriving the scheme of their peace, reconciliation, and salvation; the covenant of grace was made with him, and all fulness of grace was treasured up in him: the words may be rendered, "the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way" (h) ; that is, who am the beginning, as he is; the beginning of the creation of God, the first cause, the efficient of it, both old and new; see Col_1:18 . So Aben Ezra, who compares with this Job_40:19 . This shows the real and actual existence of Christ from eternity, his relation to Jehovah his Father, his nearness to him, equality with him, and distinction from him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation's sake,
before his works of old
; the creation of the heavens and the earth; a detail of which there is in the following verses.
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Psalm 90:2 (LITV): Before the mountains were born, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.
1 Chronicles 16:36 (LITV): Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, from everlasting even to everlasting. And all the people said, Amen, and gave praise to Jehovah.
Psalm 93:2 (LITV): Your throne is established from then; You are from everlasting.
Isaiah 63:16 (LITV): For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; You, Jehovah, are our Father, our Redeemer; Your name is from everlasting.
Proverbs 8:25 (LITV): Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth;
Micah 5:2 (LITV): And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you He shall come forth to Me to become One ruling in Israel; and His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.
Isaiah 9:6 (LITV): For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 8:58 (LITV): Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
John 1:1-2 (LITV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
1 John 1:1-2 (LITV): What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld, and what our hands touched, as regards the Word of Life. And the Life was revealed, and we have seen, and we bear witness, and we announce to you the everlasting Life which was with the Father, and was revealed to us.
1 John 5:20 (LITV): And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life everlasting.
Hebrews 1:2 (LITV): in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
(Note: Hebrews 1:2 says that Jesus existed BEFORE ALL AGES!)
Jude 1:25 (ESV): to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
You be the judge -- does the Bible teach that Jesus was created by God, or that Jesus has always existed with The Father?
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When I asked Mondo1 the following question:
What Scriptures do you use to support your belief that Jesus was created by God?
He replied and said:

Well there are a number. John 1:4, John 6:57, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 3:14... The list goes on.

The Greek word "arche" found in Revelation 3:14 can also be used for those in authority, rulers. Look how that word was used in the following Verses:
Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; Ephesians 3:10; Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 1:16; Colossians 2:10; Colossians 2:15; Titus 3:1.
Also, God calls Himself the Beginning (arche) at Revelation 1:8 and 21:6.
So, Revelation 3:14 in no way PROVES that Jesus was created by God.
I don't see how you use Hebrews 1:3 to support that belief either, especially when Hebrews 1:2 said that Jesus existed BEFORE ALL AGES. And I definitely don't see how you use John 1:4.
Keep in mind that Jesus was on earth as a Man when He spoke the words at John 6:57. And also about John 6:57, look at Albert Barnes' comments on John 5:26 (which is cross-referenced with 6:57 in his commentary):
Hath he given - This shows that the power or authority here spoken of was "given" or committed to the Lord Jesus. This evidently does not refer to the manner in which the second person of the Trinity exists, for the power and authority of which Christ here speaks is that which he exercises as "Mediator." It is the power of raising the dead and judging the world. In regard to his divine nature, it is not affirmed here that it is in any manner derived; nor does the fact that God is said to have "given" him this power prove that he was inferior in his nature or that his existence was derived. For:
1. It has reference merely "to office." As Mediator, he may be said to have been appointed by the Father.
2. Appointment to office does not prove that the one who is appointed is inferior in nature to him who appoints him. A son may be appointed to a particular work by a parent, and yet, in regard to talents and every other qualification, may be equal or superior to the father. He sustains the relation of a son, and in this relation there is an official inferiority. General Washington was not inferior in nature and talents to the men who commissioned him. He simply derived authority from them to do what he was otherwise fully "able" to do. So the Son, "as Mediator," is subject to the Father; yet this proves nothing about his nature.
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Butters said:
There is ample reason to believe that God didn' t die on a cross, and God cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted, and Jesus died. That alone proves that Jesus is human, (David's son) and God is a spirit that alone dwells in unapproachable light. He is not a son of man. Jesus is... Yeshua actually, since "Jesus" was never his name...
God in His Divine Nature is Immortal, and cannot die. But Jesus said that nothing is impossible for God. So who are we to limit what God can or cannot choose to do? Trinitarians do NOT believe that God's Immortal Divine Nature died, they believe, rather, that God took upon Himself the additional nature of MAN -- He became 100% Man and 100% God -- Two Natures in One Person, The Son of God (fully God) and The Son of Man (fully Man). It was His Human Nature that Jesus sacrificed on the cross (although He suffered the full wrath of God The Father upon sin in His Divine Nature as well). Jesus died as a Man, and rose from the dead as a Man. But He was also 100% God. It is a mystery, but so is the idea that God never had a beginning to His existence.
The Scripture that most non-Trinitarians I have talked to use to show that Jesus cannot be God because Jesus was tempted and God cannot be tempted, is James 1:13-14.
James 1:13-14 (ESV): Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
If you look at the context, it shows that the kind of temptation being spoken of was a temptation from a person's OWN SINFUL DESIRES. Of course God cannot be tempted by sinful desires, because there is no sin in Him.
But, Jesus was NOT tempted by His own sinful desires either, because Jesus never sinned and never had sinful desires. Jesus, however, could be tempted, as a MAN, from an outside source.
However, various Bible translations do make it clear that God was "tempted" in a certain way in the Old Testament:
1 Corinthians 10:9 (RV): Neither let us tempt the Lord, as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents.
Exodus 17:2 (LITV): And the people wrangled with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said to them, Why do you wrangle with me? Why do you tempt Jehovah?
Exodus 17:7 (RV): And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the striving of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?
Numbers 14:22 (RV): because all those men which have seen my glory, and my signs, which I wrought in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have tempted me these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Deuteronomy 6:16 (RV): Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Psalm 78:18-19 (RV): And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust. Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God prepare a table in the wilderness?
Psalm 78:41 (RV): And they turned again and tempted God, and provoked the Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 78:56 (RV): Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God, and kept not his testimonies;
Psalm 95:9 (RV): When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psalm 106:14 (RV): But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
Also, consider Christ's statement at John 15:13 (ESV):
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.
So, did Jesus perform a greater act of love than God, or was Jesus God in the flesh who performed the greatest act of love?
Hellrider

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God said to Moses, [...] "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
'I AM has sent me to you.'"
You said before that God was not using "I AM" as a Name in Exodus 3:14. Yet, God told Moses, "Say ... 'I AM has sent me to you.' " That is most definitely not the normal way of using "I AM." Normal people do not tell others "I AM has sent you," rather they would say "I sent you."
Mondos point is that doesn`t really say "I am has sent you", because the phrasing is hO WN , and hO WN doesn`t mean "I am", it means "the Being". When God says "I am who I am", he really says "EGW EIMI HO WN", which directly translated means "I Am the Being", not "I Am who I Am". However: This doesn`t mean that you are wrong! "I am the Being" is the direct translation of the passage, and the direct wording in greek, but that doesn`t mean that the translators made an error when the Bible was translated from greek. What is the essential meaning of "The Being"? It is existence, isn`t it? Existence in itself, for itself, by itself, and for all eternity, with no beginning, no end. This is what God is, and not even Mondo or your average jw would disagree on that. In other words, the term "The Being" means all that is God, and so does "I am". When the words EGW EIMI, "I AM" came from the mouth of God as an introductory statement in the OT, it really just means the same as "The Being". It was translated into "I AM WHAT I AM" or "I AM THAT I AM", because the translators ever since the Vulgata understood the meaning of both EGW EIMI and hO WN. The point is that the two terms mean the same thing, when God is using them. It means "I exist" (forever, by myself). What Mondo also doesn`t understand, is the claim of eternal existence by Jesus, in John 8:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Hebrew didn`t really have any words that meant "eternity". What do you then say, when you want to say that something or someone is eternal? You create an expression, a metaphore that signifies an extremely long-term existence, construct sentences that would mean such a thing as our modern word, "eternal". The greeks were great poets, but these jws don`t understand poetry very well...
Mondo1

Oy vey.
Mondos point is that doesn`t really say "I am has sent you", because the phrasing is hO WN , and hO WN doesn`t mean "I am", it means "the Being". When God says "I am who I am", he really says "EGW EIMI HO WN", which directly translated means "I Am the Being", not "I Am who I Am". However: This doesn`t mean that you are wrong! "I am the Being" is the direct translation of the passage, and the direct wording in greek, but that doesn`t mean that the translators made an error when the Bible was translated from greek. What is the essential meaning of "The Being"? It is existence, isn`t it? Existence in itself, for itself, by itself, and for all eternity, with no beginning, no end. This is what God is, and not even Mondo or your average jw would disagree on that. In other words, the term "The Being" means all that is God, and so does "I am". When the words EGW EIMI, "I AM" came from the mouth of God as an introductory statement in the OT, it really just means the same as "The Being". It was translated into "I AM WHAT I AM" or "I AM THAT I AM", because the translators ever since the Vulgata understood the meaning of both EGW EIMI and hO WN. The point is that the two terms mean the same thing, when God is using them. It means "I exist" (forever, by myself). What Mondo also doesn`t understand, is the claim of eternal existence by Jesus, in John 8:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
First of all, hO WN does not mean eternal existence. So I don't know where you got that from. Second of all, you have contradicted your argument that Jesus is quoting Exodus 3:14. Now you seem to say that he is no longer quoting it, he just means the samething. If they meant the same thing that why are they different??
You really amaze me, because you keep making an argument about what Jesus supposedly meant in linking to other texts, but you ***never*** deal with what Jesus actually said and the meaning of those words!
Hebrew didn`t really have any words that meant "eternity". What do you then say, when you want to say that something or someone is eternal? You create an expression, a metaphore that signifies an extremely long-term existence, construct sentences that would mean such a thing as our modern word, "eternal". The greeks were great poets, but these jws don`t understand poetry very well...
Ummm.. ever heard of olam? It referred to an unspecified period of past time, but it was often used to describe God as eternal. In Greek we would say aiwnos.
The Greek word "arche" found in Revelation 3:14 can also be used for those in authority, rulers. Look how that word was used in the following Verses: Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 15:24 ; Ephesians 1:21 ; Ephesians 3:10; Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 1:16 ; Colossians 2:10 ; Colossians 2:15; Titus 3:1.
Also, God calls Himself the Beginning (arche) at Revelation 1:8 and 21:6.
So, Revelation 3:14 in no way PROVES that Jesus was created by God.
I will be making a more extensive post on this soon, but your not correct. Within the NT arch is only used for rulers as a plural or as the abstract "rule." Whenever a singular "ruler" is spoken of the term used if ARCWN, as in Revelation 1:5. Otherwise, every time the singular ARCH is used within the NT, especially with a genitive as in Revelation 3:14, it always refers to the first in time or the first period of time. As BDAG says, the mean "first-created" is "linguistically probable."
I don't see how you use Hebrews 1:3 to support that belief either, especially when Hebrews 1:2 said that Jesus existed BEFORE ALL AGES. And I definitely don't see how you use John 1:4.
Well Hebrew 1:3 refers to Jesus literally as "the copy of God's being." Do the math. John 1:4 says, when properly punctuated, "what came to be in him was life." Hmm. Do the math there too. As for "the ages," they refer to different periods of mans existence. For example, we often read of "the age to come," and the period before the flood was "an age" and the period before the fall was "an age."
Keep in mind that Jesus was on earth as a Man when He spoke the words at John 6:57. And also about John 6:57, look at Albert Barnes' comments on John 5:26 (which is cross-referenced with 6:57 in his commentary):
I think you missed the key words. "I live because of the Father." The Father is the source of Christ's life, he is not "self existent."
Jude 1:25 (ESV): to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord , be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
This was a doxology. It does not say that God received it "before all time," etc, it is a prayer. It is a statement included for emphasis.
If Jesus was the "Wisdom" personified in Proverbs Chapter 8, and IF, as non-Trinitarians claim, Jesus was created by God, then that means God had to create wisdom, and at some point in the past God was without wisdom!
You are confusing the attribute of Wisdom with the person called Wisdom. So the problem is non-existent.
Mondo

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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