Excellent post and thread!!!! I'm not so sure that the corporate leaders are gleefully looking forward to the time that the "end" comes. They do NOT live their lives as if they truly believe this, at all. Are you sure of that assumption, Auld Soul??
JW Reform, It will NEVER happen...
by AuldSoul 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AuldSoul
I think history teaches that most religions don't survive, usually due to the inherent inflexibility of belief systems, which produces unresponsiveness or sluggish response to societal changes.
But from what I read here, it seems the consensus opinion is the opposite; that most religions are believed to be fairly resilient and adaptable to their societal environments. I think the history of this religion is a pretty poor one when it comes to adaptation suitable for long-term survivability of the religion. They have done an incredibly thorough job of expiring themselves, in the straits of time, they cannot outlive their predictions.
Narkissos: which "reform" are you expecting?
The changed way of dealing with the blood issue is a reform. And I expect more reforms along those lines. The history of the religion shows a pattern of introducing an idea in one arena and then expanding the application, pointing back to what used to be an exception as the burgeoning indication from the Spirit which way things should be customarily handled in future. I expect disfellowshipping will be phased out entirely, or reserved for special occasions. Since the announcements are the same and the effects are the same, the rank and file in the congregations won't even notice. Disassociation is less "messy" and involves no potential legal liabilities whatsoever.
Successful businessmen cast aside unproductive business models all the time, even cherished business models that may have been productive in the past. Businesses that fail often failed to adapt.
"True believers" don't cast aside their doctrines. As time marches on, Jehovah's Witnesses are required to either cast aside doctrine or adhere to it. The current Governing Body has not demonstrated nearly the doctrinal flexibility of the J.F. Rutherford era. Nor is there any reason to expect that it might in the future, primarily consisting, as it does, of persons hand-picked for their zeal for maintaining the status quo and adhering strictly to current dogma.
In my opinion, this indicates strongly that they will be highly inflexible and unresponsive.
Most businesses fail, most religions fail. The reasons for failure are fairly identical. I think this one will fail because it will not adapt. Case in point, door-to-door ministry. Proven failure. Horribly inefficient. Considered drudgery by the vast majority of adherents. Ploddingly encouraged by the Governing Body.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Finally-Free
Well, I certainly never had any expectations that "voting with your feet" or "voting with your pocketbook" would lead to reform and I'm sure I never said so.
Ditto. None of the JWs were my friends anyway, so I didn't care how stupidly money was wasted as long as it wasn't mine. The blunders of the local elders provided a little comic relief to my otherwise mundane existence. I certainly didn't expect my "voting with my wallet or feet" to change anything. I'm not under any illusions - the watchtower or its elders didn't give a shit about my opinions even at the best of times. My voting with my wallet and feet was for my personal benefit - nothing more.
I don't see the watchtower disappearing any time soon, and I don't see any significant reforms on the horizon. Those who join the watchtower do so because it's different from mainstream religions, because it's extreme rather than moderate. Those are the watchtower's strongest selling points. The fact that they're losing members in developed countries will make them tighten their grip, not loosen it. In the long run, that tactic will contribute to their decline, but they won't vanish. There will always be people who like that type of environment.
W
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Borgia
proplog2,
Interestingly, running an extrapolation in excel on the figures of the last 10 to 20 years, it seems to indicate a demise after 2014. A maximum adherence around 8 to 9 million and that´s about it. But, as you know, it's statistics.
WCG has reformed dramatically after the demise of their first leader Armstrong.
Many of the JW´s I spoke to about end time eschatology of the WBTS indicate that although they would not feel happy about things not coming true, at least they perceive to have lead a good life..........
So, although I keep the door open to expectations of reform, I do not consider them probable with the current staff on the GB and affiliated comitees. Especially when it comes down to babtism age, vows, disfellowshipping and shunning, the lot about organisational issues. I do suspect a development to an even more rigid system before the final breakdown.
AS, it´s good to see you again.
Cheers
Borgia
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AuldSoul
Minimus,
Jaracz and Co. are glazed-eyed believers in the printed pulp they peddle to the public. The smarter of the GB members, who have very small voice in decisions, are not (Schroeder being one such). There are some posters here who know Jaracz well, and others who know those he hand picked (like Samuel Herd) for Governing Body membership. These all attest to the earnest belief of these men, and their dogmatic insistance on adherence to "righteous standards" (which is euphemistic for age-old GB decisions). When they have bent the rules, it is not in favor of latitude. ALL the recent appointees have this same reputation as unyielding zealots. Those alone make up four of the ten.
By far, the majority of GB members really believe persecution of all organized religions is imminent, unless they have successfully fooled even very close friends (which is possible).
Because of the way this organization is structured, in order for reform to occur it MUST occur within the Governing Body. I think the recent development in Bethel layoffs (let's call it what it is) and in the abrupt elimination of the titular position "Bethel Elder" demonstrate the sort of GB we have, and leave no room for any hope for significant reforms.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
OUTLAW
..It`s a dooms day cult.Thats what they sell.Doom..Obedience is everything.You won`t change a thing when the majority blindly obey..Reform will never happen..Ever...OUTLAW
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minimus
But AS, think about it! Does this CORPORATION act like THEY believe?? THEY are the ones running the Organization. They are the lawyers and accountants that care about the bottom line. And yes, I do feel that this Corp. cares DEEPLY about $$$$. Why? Because they have more letters to conregations and articles in WTs. showing how and why to donate. IF a religion cared so much for "The End" as they SAY they do, they wouldn't be concentrating so much on material things such as buildings, land, real estate, wills, etc.
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Narkissos
Seems like we're not so far apart after all... Of course there are several ways for an organisation to "survive"... dwindling to a confidential group or moving on to another thriving and growing form.
In the end it's all about marketing. If they cannot find any exclusive appeal product besides the end times they will eventually decrease. I think the SDAs are a very good but rare example of positively surviving an eschatological origin (without officially renouncing it) by shifting to other characteristic features (e.g. the Sabbath, health and social involvement). The JWs have a number of non-eschatological visible features, some socially untenable (blood transfusions, shunning), others socially viable (antitrinitarianism, the use of "Jehovah," the dietary prohibition of blood, political and military "neutrality," what else?). I think they could easily drop the most painful features without being threatened in their identity, membership or financial balance. Why do most JWs keep on going anyway? Why do new members join? I guess it depends way more on social dynamics (family ties, relationships, love-bombing) than on short-term expectations.
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Sunspot
I think the recent development in Bethel layoffs (let's call it what it is) and in the abrupt elimination of the titular position "Bethel Elder" demonstrate the sort of GB we have, and leave no room for any hope for significant reforms.
Significant reforms.
This is what I find the most puzzling of all.....the fact that there are those who would like to see these "significant reforms" take place and be implemented some time in the future.....but I cannot for the life of me wrap MY mind around how ANY reformation could change the core structure of the WTS into anything even relatively appealing.
Let's think of the WTS as a well-known restaurant that has, upon closer scrutiny, been found to have less than the scrupulous sanitary standards that most patrons have been told existed and that they have come to expect.
Making sure the waiters wash their hands before serving the food----will not assure the patrons that the food itself is not contaminated with rat feces, or that it is not kept properly refrigerated before cooking.
There is just too much that is wrong with the restaurant from the very basics on UP, and one or two tiny changes in procedure will not affect the overall quality of performance that is expected. It should be razed and the patrons should be urged to find a better place to dine in order to rid everyone of further contamination.
The same holds true with the evil and corrupt WTS run by the GB.......IT may have a reputation of "being clean" in some minds.....but on closer inspection, is full of the same filth and nastiness as that "restaurant" held in such high esteem by those who are still being duped and lied to about its purity.
The WTS has, IMHO, absolutely NO redeeming value in which to base any changes or reform ON......so how can anyone base their whole belief system on something as thoroughly corrupt as the WTS is? The WTS will NEVER have "God's blessing"or will it EVER bring anyone to Jesus Christ. It is too bad that so many nice people are under its thumb, and look to IT for their salvation.
Along with ALL the (man) made-up teachings, the WTS causes far more pain, hurt and shredding of whole families than any "religion" in this area. If it were only possible to close up all the Kingdom Halls and tear them down, erecting monuments with names engraved, to all who have been hurt and otherwise adversely affected by this hideous organization.
Annie
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garybuss
The Watch Tower printing company has reformed a LOT since I first went to the 1949 district assembly at 5 years old. I'd think the surprise would be if they didn't reform. They're in constant change.
I believe they've changed for the worse.
There's nothing they could change into that I'd be interested in. Too many bad memories.
To the willing adult Witnesses, I just wish them lots of problems and a bad life.