The Divine Error of the Ages. Russell Chart update.

by Wasanelder Once 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Everyone - did you notice how Steam referred to all of us as "rifraft?" Is that a term that the Lord Jesus taught his disciples to call those who did not listen to them?

    Yes, this is the same attitude of all the others who feel they alone have all the truth. Yet none of them can explain to us "rifraft" why these pompous, arrogant jerks who call people names were deemed more spiritual than any of the rest of us? Maybe Steam can answer why the Lord chose him and not me. Is it becuase I don't view the rest of the world as "worldly" or "rifraft?" just becuase they have a difference of opinion than I do?.

    Nice Chrisitan you are Steam. Lilly

  • Steam
    Steam

    Aw, Lily I'm sorry; just got carried away with all this fol de rol; I apologie for saying that to you and to all. Lily you answer the call first, you don't join the JWs. The Truth is free for all earnest truth seekers but you have to study the Bible with the aid of Russell's books. And that is no joke. That is the way the Lord has set it up. Do it.

    Some people are very hard headed, may be you can hear or have the eye to see; just try it. God is going to train his new employees by this metheod, but if you won't take the training he will not employ you. Simple! People who have Preent Truth are special because of the Truth; they are sanctified, that means set aside for judgment now. Will be judged before they die. The rest of humanity waits til Christ's Kingdom judges them. Just when you were catching on you jumped off the BS FORUM, sad. You should have stayed there. Your grudge against Pastor Russell is wrong, it is Rutherford who screwed up the situation. Think about it.

    Christian Love, Bob Jones Psalm 50:5

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Steam,

    You are showing just how far into the dark you really are. Please think about these questions, for it may help you see the light.

    So it is Jesus arrangement for true Christians to study the books of Russell to learn the truth? Well then, I guess Jesus pouring out the holy spirit on believers at pentecost was for what reason then? It could not have been so that HE could teach them for they did not have Russell's books yet.

    Were any of the Apostles in the truth? - guess not because Russell was not alive then to teach it to them

    Where exactly in the bible did the Lord Jesus tell us to await the "present truth" of Russell's books? I'm sure you can direct me to this verse?

    Are you saying that until the year 1874 and Russells great awakening by the Lord to teach the truth to the world - there was not one true Christian on earth? Guess Jesus lied then for his said that he would "be with his church until the end of the age". Matthew 28:19. who was he talking about being with?

    One more thing, like I told your friends already and the bible students who tried to enslave me to Russell after the Lord already broke my yokes to the WT organization and I will repeat here for you: Niether the WT organization, nor any of the bible student groups, nor any of you as individuals, nor anyone else EXCEPT Christ can tell anyone wether they are in HIS BODY or not. And it is rather arrogant of you and others to believe you can do so.

    Jesus said "no one comes to the father except through me" - Notice we are to go thru Jesus and not Russell

    The bible says "all scripture is inspired of God for teaching, reproving and setting things straight". - apparently you and the BS feel that this is a lie and that the bible is not sufficient for christians as we need other books by Russell? Did you tell let God and Jesus know this little fact?

    The bible also says "my sheep know me and I know them" - however you and RR have consistantly told me I am not a sheep. Did you clear this with the Lord yet?

    I'm not holding out much hope of getting any logical, coherent response from you. I am simply making a point for others to see how blind you are. BTW you forgot to answer my question which was: why is it that the Lord picks you arrogant ones who call people "worldly" and "rifraft" to come in his name and teach the truth? Is it a prerequisite of the Lord to hate and condem the world before you can be a "true" Christian?

    If so, I guess that leaves me out, and the early disciples, and the Apostles, and the early church fathers, and many more. Lilly

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    One more thing: God will not employ me as his employee unless I teach by his method which is using Russell's books? And we are going to teach all of those in the New System by these books as well? I think I heard that in the Watchtower too, and here is my response to them which is the same one I am going to give you..........Are you ready Steam?

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahh - really though, you crack me up. Lil

  • My MILs worst nightmare, a nonJW
    My MILs worst nightmare, a nonJW

    I prefer your example lovelylil

    You are consistent and always post an even tempered and well thought out message. I would refer to you as a "Christian", a follower of Christ.

    Steam you are a poser, a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    Steam,

    Why did Jehovah allow Rutherford to hijack the one source of truth for mankind, the Watchtower magazine? Why did Jesus have such a hard time keeping his sheep together when all the daughters of the Watchtower went running willy nilly into the night? If we spiritualize everything that takes place because of greed for control, we end up like the Watchtower Organization with its self aggrandizing explanations of events.. 1919 for the choosing of them etc. I find the whole affair pathetic and unworthy of a reasonable person's time. Good ol'PSL Johnson was a character, wasn't he?

    Charts, dates, conventions? Hell, just give me a nice day with a nice book and no prostelyzing zealots at my door. By the way, who sends out the Pilgrams to the Bible Student groups these days?

    Is it possible to reduce one's cholestoral with Miracle "Wheaties"?

    W.Once

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Here are some of the great truths that we will be taught in the new order by the bible students - that is if we wish to become employees of God too. They are quoted here from Russell's books which we were told on this thread we will be taught out of in the future. So, please read carefully and take notes too, so that you too can have the bible truth's interpreted for you by "that servant" whom Christ appointed as his spokesman;

    Here are the truths in their chronological order;

    1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).

    1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

    1880 "We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age. (Zion's Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)

    1886 "The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshaling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty, is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing. … The time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth, (Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth." (Zion's Watchtower, January, 1886;Watchtower reprints I, p. 817)

    1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)

    1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')

    1889 "Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to (but not including) A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ's reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without a reasonable foundation." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 39. 1889)

    1889 "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889)

    1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

    1889 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since A.D. 1872 are chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millennium." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 33, 1889)

    1889 "Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)

    1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)

    1894 "A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes." (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)

    1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)

    1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, Gods dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower, July 15, 1894, Reprints p. 1677)

    1897 "...this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years.... This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble...." (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition [1916 edition changed to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years.... Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble...."] note: the measurement was the length of an interior passageway discovered inside the Pyramids. It has no reference in Scripture.)

    1897 "Complete destruction of the 'powers that be' of 'this present evil worlds - political, financial, ecclesiastical - about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)

    1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D....and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol.4, p.621, 1897)

    1897 "The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. "Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers... "The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment's, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. "...namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary." (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)

    1902 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

    1903 "When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)

    1904 "According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the 'Times of the Gentiles,' October, 1914." (The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 6, p. 579, 1904)

    1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

    1908 "True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved" (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

    1914 "Even if the time of our change should not come within ten years, what more should we ask? Are we not a blessed, happy people? Is not our God faithful? If anyone knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything better, we hope you will tell us." (Watchtower, Dec 15, 1914, p. 376.)

    1914 "Studying God's Word, we have measured the 2520 years, the seven symbolic times, from that year 606 B.C. and have found that it reached down to October, 1914, as nearly as we were able to reckon. We did not say positively that this would be the year." (Watchtower, November 1, 1914, p. 325)

    1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

    1914 "There is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the consummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the Scriptures foretell in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. We see the participants in this great crisis banding themselves together… The great crisis, the great clash, symbolically represented as a fire, that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth, is very near." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, May 1, 1914, p. 5450)

    1915 "The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures Rev 19:16-20). It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war cannot last much longer until revolutions shall break out" (C.T. Russell, Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676, Sometime during World War I)

    1915 Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ's reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without reasonable foundation. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 39)

    1915 If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall, by showing that it began in A.D. 1873, be proving that we are already in it. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 40)

    1915 Firstly, that at that date [1914] the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 77)

    1915 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 99)

    1915 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 101)

    1915 "As in the type that date - three and a half years after the death of Christ - marked the end of all special favor to the Jew and the beginning of favor to the Gentiles, so we recognize A.D. 1881 as marking the close of the 'high calling,' or invitation to the blessing peculiar to this age - to become joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the divine nature." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 235)

    1915 So it was in this harvest also up to A.D. 1878 the time prophecies and the fact of the Lord's presence, substantially as here presented, though less clearly, was our message. Since then the work has widened, and the view of other truths has become brighter and clearer; but the same fact and scriptures, teaching the same time and presence, stand unchallenged and incontrovertible. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 236)

    1915 The Gentile Times prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of A.D. 1915; and Parallelism above shows that this period corresponds exactly with the year A.D. 70, which witnessed the completion of the downfall of the Jewish polity. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 242)

    1915 We are already living in the seventh millennium - since October 1872. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 363)

    1915 The Battle of Armageddon, to which this war is leading, will be a great contest between right and wrong, and will signify the complete and everlasting overthrow of the wrong, and the permanent establishment of Messiah's righteous kingdom for the blessing of the world. … Our sympathies are broad enough to cover all engaged in the dreadful strife, as our hope is broad enough and deep enough to include all in the great blessings which our Master and his Millennial kingdom are about to bring to the world. (Watchtower Reprints, VI, April 1, 1915, p. 5659)

    1915 To our understanding the general call to this joint heirship with our Redeemer as members of the New Creation of God, ceased in 1881. (The New Creation; 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 95)

    1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." (The Time Is At Hand, Foreword, p 2, 1916)

    1916 We see no reason for doubting, therefore, that the Times of the Gentiles ended in October, 1914; and that a few more years will witness their utter collapse and the full establishment of God's kingdom in the hands of Messiah." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1916, p. 5950)

    Whew, does anyone have an aspirin? My head suddenly hurts. Lilly

  • Steam
    Steam

    Lil, you keep on picking out items to dispute you might accidently learn the truth. It's so picky-picky!

    You and Mils make my being here a worthless venture. I think Linda might have listened, she seems to have a hearing ear. Might have helped some to understand something but you spoiled the situation with your grudge against Pastor Russell. Shame. It would have been great to discuss scriptures. I haven't seen Pastor Russell's explanation of Revelation, I think Mils must be speaking of the 7th Volume put out in June 1917 by Rutherford. That was not Russell's explanation.

    I wish you well, Steam

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Steam,

    Why are you here anyway? To discuss scriptures? That is funny, in all the time I have known you, I have never heard you cite even one verse of scripture. All you do is cite Russell's teachings from his book. The only reason you joined this forum was to get in on the 1874 debate which none of the 3 of you BS were able to show one iota of proof for.

    As a matter of fact, one of your BS group finally admitted that Russell borrowed that date from Barbour.

    We are not against you personally here. But you have to understand that many of us were once in your position. We also thought we had the truth and would have bet our lives on it. It also made many of us (myself included) very haughty and jugdemental towards others who did not share "our" truth. Most of us have realized the folly of our ways and have deep regret for the totally un-christian way we treated all the rest of the world, just because they did not agree with our way of thinking.

    I have no grudge against Russell at all. I think if I had known him personally, I would have liked him. I have never called him a false prophet like most do either. I just beleive he got caught up with the teachings of his day and the one thing I do fault him with is that he would says "this is the Lords date" as if it were fact. When the fact is the Lord did NOT give him permission to do so. And what I am against as far as BS is the way you exalt him (Russell) into the Lord's place.

    I am not bitter against the WT or Rutherford either. Believe it or not, I learned and grew as a Christian after I left the org. And it was because of my experiences in the org. that I learned some great lessons that helped me grow emotionally, intellectually and spiriturally. The main lessons I learned are these:

    1. don't be misled away from the Lord again by a man made book 2. don't get too haughty as to think you have the only truth and thus judge the rest of mankind as unworthy 3. love even your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (instead of calling them rifraft, you know what I mean).4. Even if I believe I have some truth that others do not have - it does not make me any better than any other human being on the face of the earth

    You claim you follow the Lord but this fact escapes your notice: The Lord came and died for all people - including the ones that you call rifraft. Do you really believe that the Lord is going to put you in a position to teach people that you have such scorn for? Seems to me that you are more a follower of the pharisees as they had the same attitude you had. See what haughtiness does to someone? And they also had no use for the Lord because they had Moses. Guess you have no use for the Lord because you have Russell?

    I won't respond to you anymore, just like I won't respond to RR anymore. But one thing I am glad of is this: your words are on this forum now and thousands of people can read them and see for themselves what you "bible students" really believe. Hopefully it will keep them from leaving the JWs and going to your group as they will find the same attitudes there and the same "exclusive" mind set. And I hope and pray if they still have faith they go to the right person who will teach them truth which is Jesus Christ. Peace, Lilly

  • Hondo
    Hondo

    Steam said:

    "There is no one else who has provided this great amount of truth that is clear and harmonious."

    BS, Russell was a flamin IDIOT!!!

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