Taking One for the Team (page 2)

Zico

'I doubt this thread was started to attack others who have taken a non-Christian course in some way. Why does it always turn that way?'

Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have hi-jacked the thread. Sorry Perry.

kid-A

"It seems obvious that Perry was addressing Jw's here - lurkers who deny Christ by pretending to accept Him."

Really does not matter. This is a public discussion forum with a multiplicity of differing perspectives....we all have the right to call his post as we see it. As to the second sentence, it is your opinion (based upon your particular 'brand' of x-tianity) which leads you to the conclusion that JWs are "rejecting" christ while "pretending" to accept him. Active JWs would consider you to be a false christian, so why should anyone here consider you or Perry to be "better" christians than JWs???? Frankly, the very fact that you have this elated opinion of your particular "flavour" of x-tianity sounds like the antithesis of what a humble, loving and forgiving christian should be behaving like.....

"I doubt this thread was started to attack others who have taken a non-Christian course in some way. Why does it always turn that way?"

Simple. Inqusitor already answered the question perfectly. Perry is a self-righteous wind-bag who thinks he has a monopoly on "true" christianity. He sits on his brass-plated throne casting his righteous judgements and pronouncements upon all those whom he considers morally or "religiously" inferior. He spews anti-science and anti-evolution propaganda whenever he gets the chance whilst suffering from the delusion that there really was a fantasy garden called "Eden" where some sky-king decided to create an "Adam & Eve".....

In every facet, Perry is the intellectual equivalent of an active JW. He thinks he alone has the "true" version of christianity whilst condemning other christian sects and in the process violating the cardinal principal of christian morality: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".....

I wonder when that parrot is finally going to poop on his shoulder?

Inquisitor

In every facet, Perry is the intellectual equivalent of an active JW. - kid A

Hear, hear!

INQ

Perry

I wonder when that parrot is finally going to poop on his shoulder?

Kid-A,

Whom did you think you were addressing all this time? This is a foot perch that I picked up for a steal an a mannequin shop that was going out of business. He's kinda cute dontcha think?

JamesThomas

Perry, your thread projects the extreme divisive-nature generally expressed by religionists who have a personal little deity to champion and guard.

It is this question that led me to investigate not just who I am (where I get my identity), but just as importantly what I am (and everyone else for that matter).

I suggest that you delve still deeper within until you realize what completely and unconditionally unites all phenominal existence, no matter what mind generated beliefs are held or not held. What are you really when all thoughts and beliefs -- which segregate and partition "self" and "other" -- are absent? So far it seems you have looked only as far as the fragmented stories and drama the mind presents.

j

Perry

So far by their silence, Inquisitor and (on another occasion) James Thomas have admitted to being liars, theives and adulterers. I'm sure that I could ask Kid-A the same questions and get the same silence and therefore the same admission of guilt.

Apparently, this is their version of freedom, simply closing the mind to such realities and marginalising people who examine the contradictions of our existence. If that is your choice, fine. I suppose that I am guilty of unapproved thinking....sorry, get over it. So far none of my opponents have said one word how they live with their crimes. I guess you all just close the mind and it all magically goes away. It appears that you have simply traded the cognitive dissonance as a WT slave for the cognitive dissonance as a slave of sin. If you all don't want to address the contradictions of your own existence, your own crimes, and your own chronic failed aspirations, then let's just all go have a beer and fugetaboutit.

But for the many JW's lurking here that do have an interest in how Christianity addresses sin, YOUR SIN, not the silly rules of the WT, then examining the practice of ritualized formal rejection of Jesus is a good place to start IMHO.

Paralipomenon

This post is going to piss off alot of theists here.

As described by the bible, Jesus sacrifice seemed to be no more of a play than redemption.

While in a human body, he did experience ridicule and torture. He had one thing going for him that no other human could claim.

Foreknowledge. This whole event had already been prophesied, he KNEW after death that he'd be raised. So he just followed the script. The huge difference between Jesus and a human that would undergo the exact same circumstances is a human would be put through that test with a hope of an afterlife.

No one person can KNOW what the afterlife is like. They face test and eventual death on the hope that they did everything right.

Jesus already knew. He knew he'd be raised, he knew that this torture was only momentary and could focus on going home.

That's like telling someone if they file for bankruptcy, you'll give them a billion dollars. Can you really call that self sacrifice?

He was sent to earth with one purpose: Fulfill prophesy by dying. He went to earth, he died, prophesy fulfilled.

Where was the sacrifice? At what point did he ever have anything to lose?

Bah, done ranting.

Inquisitor

Where was the sacrifice? At what point did he ever have anything to lose? - paralipo

Well, he lost:

i) a lot of blood and sweat

ii) his composure; that's why he asks Big Daddy why he was forsaken

iii) his life, eventually

and most humiliating of all:

iv) he lost an opportunity to get laid (not the put in a cold stony tomb sense). But of course we all know that our contemporaries e.g. Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Dan Brown would tell you that Jesus didn't really die a virgin.

INQ

sir82

In other words, if sin was not possible would that be a good thing or a bad thing? What might that kind of existence look like?

God is incapable of sin, right? Didn't he have a pretty good life before he started creating all of those (potentially) mucking-up sinning creatures?

If life was good for God (who was incapable of sin), why would it be any less so for any creations he chose to make which would also be incapable of sin?

Perry

God is incapable of sin, right? Didn't he have a pretty good life before he started creating all of those (potentially) mucking-up sinning creatures?

If life was good for God (who was incapable of sin), why would it be any less so for any creations he chose to make which would also be incapable of sin?

Sir,

You ask a very good question. One that holds the key to understanding our nature compared to God's. When a person "know's thyself" it is a great benefit. It allows you to take on challenges that you can win instead of ones that guarantee failure. Please indulge my little parable below.

The Butter Knife and the Better Knife

A few weeks ago at church I had the great privledge and prestigous honor of watching over a group of 4 and 5 year olds for two hours. During this truly glorifying experience, we were involved in a craft that required the cutting of play-doh into sections. The children were given among other things a paper plate and a plastic butter knife to cut their play-doh alotments. I, being the Grand Master of the activity located a kitchen knife and proceeded to cut the large portion into smaller sections so as to distribute.

During this activity a cute little Asian child wanted the kitchen knife since he could easily see that it was better. When I eventually strongly denied his request, he made the ugliest face I have ever seen and discharged a reservoir of anger that was truly remarkable. For only a moment I imagined him becoming violent, perhaps with martial arts directed at me to resolve his dilemma, but he didn't. Instead his anger gave way to tears streaming down his face. I then realized that he took it personal, it wasn't about the knife at all. In his view, I was assaulting him by my apparent duplicity. How could I both approve of and deny the better knife at the same time? That which I declared wrong, I used. I was saying that it was both good and bad. To him, I was acting evil.

From my perspective, the child was acting evil since all the other children weren't concerned with this moral dilemma and were making their crafts quite nicely. They were ok using the butter knife entrusted to them and were not concerned with my better knife. There was peace, unity, progress, development, and community. All this was halted for the angry child.

I later related this story to a church member, a psychologist who took a third position by essentially positing the evil, not in the child as I did, nor in me as the child did, but in the parents who did not love the child enough at home. She surmised that he probably wasn't getting enough attention and was trying to form a maladaptive relationship with things instead of with people. In her view, the evil was outside the child and it twisted him into an image of itself.

Sir, what if God simply knows that we are not capable of handling absolute moral direction just as children are not capable of handling a very sharp kitchen knife? I mean he wouldn't be much of a God if he didn't have greater power in every way than us would he?

Also, where in the bible does it say that God will always be the final arbiter over good and bad? Doesn't it say that imortality is the destiny of those accepting Christ's pardon? I don't really know if this is our end or not, and the answer to that question is irrelevant to me anyway because I don't desire God's position anymore because he is part of me. I would need to kill off part of myself in order to steal this from God.

I guess the bottom line is; How can you charge God with evil for reserving certain things for himself when people withhold things from their children whom they dearly love all the time..... even if later they are given the same thing they once were denied after they grow up?

Taking One for the Team

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