Taking One for the Team (page 3)

JamesThomas

Perry:

So far by their silence, Inquisitor and (on another occasion) James Thomas have admitted to being liars, theives and adulterers. I'm sure that I could ask Kid-A the same questions and get the same silence and therefore the same admission of guilt.
Apparently, this is their version of freedom, simply closing the mind to such realities and marginalising people who examine the contradictions of our existence. If that is your choice, fine. I suppose that I am guilty of unapproved thinking....sorry, get over it. So far none of my opponents have said one word how they live with their crimes. I guess you all just close the mind and it all magically goes away. It appears that you have simply traded the cognitive dissonance as a WT slave for the cognitive dissonance as a slave of sin. If you all don't want to address the contradictions of your own existence, your own crimes, and your own chronic failed aspirations, then let's just all go have a beer and fugetaboutit.

Notice, Perry, how you tenaciously place emphasis on what divides us. I have been attempting to point to what unites us: That, which has no beginning and no end.

The price of shrinking what is actually INFINITE (and so can be realized as the foundational reality of everything) down into a personal-little-deity engraved in the imagination of the mind, is intensified hostile division: basically equating to those within the little circle of the deity, and those outside. Blindly ignoring what unites us, and instead supporting and reinforcing what seemingly divides us, is insanity; the prime cause of all suffering.

j

Paralipomenon

"Sir, what if God simply knows that we are not capable of handling absolute moral direction just as children are not capable of handling a very sharp kitchen knife? I mean he wouldn't be much of a God if he didn't have greater power in every way than us would he?"

If we are not capable of handling absolute moral direction, would the tree in the garden of eden have been a cruel trick?

Perry

Paralip,

You're getting close IMO. Not a trick though.... but definitely an illusion that flushed out the enemy. The joke is on the devil. That knowledge never did exist! Pretty funny if you think about it.

Paralipomenon

By that logic we were never meant to be perfect and the garden of eden was a ruse.

That would completely invalidate Jesus' sacrifice since we were never worthy of redemption in the first place.

Not that I have a problem with that, but I'm enjoying the debate. =)

Perry

James, I know that we don't agree on some stuff but I always read your posts bcause they are usually interesting.

But, I guess I just have a hard time following you on the Infinite God concept of yours. Are suggesting God is an indifferent albeit Infinite force? Ok, I'll go with you. So, how does that address your sin and the difference between what you aspire to and what you do? How do you escape being rightfully judged (regardless if it ever happens in your view) by how you judge others? I mean morally it should happen irregardless if it ever does or not so that a concept of justice can exist.

How do you resolve this problem?

sir82

Ah, so God created us to be "moral children" for the entire time we inhabit the earth then?

It is absolutely impossible for us, while we exist as humans, to comprehend the "grand thoughts" of God?

Hmmm...if I were in charge of a group of 4 and 5 year olds, would I allow them to cause wanton destruction, pain, and suffering on each other? Why would I place innocent children in harm's way? Wouldn't I be a rather irresponsible parent or teacher?

If a parent gave his child an loaded AK-47 and told him to go play in the street, he'd be locked up for life.

Why does God get a pass for creating humans as moral children, incapable of ever "growing up", and then give the ability to torture, maim, and kill each other for thousands of years?

Perry

Paralip writes:

By that logic we were never meant to be perfect and the garden of eden was a ruse.

Whoa, not so fast. Adam was perfect because whatever lofty moral indulgence he wished to explore, he easily succeeded. Not like us who only dream about real morality and hold others to standards that we chronically violate ourselves, which makes us liable to the punishment we would mete out to others. We were just never meant to state certain things as good and then after we try them for a while later say they were bad. And then even later say they are good again when it suits our selfish purposes. God communicated what was good to Adam's spirit. Adam's mind then decided which lofty moral adventures to explore, then his body obediently followed. Spirit, Mind and then Body.... that was the perfect order. Now its backwards, Body, Mind and Spirit. Without the option of disobedience Adam could not have been said to be free.

That would completely invalidate Jesus' sacrifice since we were never worthy of redemption in the first place.

The fact that we are in no way worthy of redemption only sweetens Jesus" sacrifice, not invalidates it. As the tree flushed out the deception of the enemy, Satan's attempt to capture the species into sin for his own perverted purposes flushed out God's GRACE!

Perry

Why does God get a pass for creating humans as moral children, incapable of ever "growing up", and then give the ability to torture, maim, and kill each other for thousands of years?

Whoever claimed that God created humans as such that you describe? Christians claim people were created the opposite of what you accuse God of doing. Apparently you do have a grip on reality and agree with the bible's moral accessment that man's morality is corrupt. It just makes you mad at God because you just don't understand how this current state of things can be allowed to exist right? In other words, you want the Better Knife as opposed to the Butter Knife given to you.

But, on a personal level all that is simply irrelevant. How do you personally justify your existence by your own morality? How has that solution been working out for you?

Paralipomenon

So if the tree was there to flush out the deception of Satan, wouldn't that make God an empowerer of evil?

If Satan was having wicked thoughts but had no means to carry them out then he was still righteous. But by providing the means for Satan to sin, God was enabling Satan to become evil.

Paralleled to the Butter/better knife story. God explained that the kitchen knife is bad then went and put it on the child's desk to see if the child had actually understood the lesson.

Hell, to run away on the tangent with the story, after the child picks up the knife and cuts himself, the teacher comes back in and hacks off all the child's limbs. "That's what you get for not listening to me! You and all your children will not have hands or legs until you learn to hold a knife properly"

"but teacher" the child cries, "how can I learn without any hands or feet?"

"Long after you're dead, I'll send my son. He'll have hands and will be able to show you that he can hold a knife without cutting himself"

"Isn't your son an adult" sobs the child "surely he already knows how to use a knife"

"Yes he is and adult, and knows how to use a knife. But the limbless masses will be jealous and hack off his hands and feet and so the curse will be broken"

"Teacher?" the child asks "after your son loses his hands, my children will grow hands again?"

"Oh no" the teacher laughs "at that point you will have spiritual hands. When you fumble with knives after that you will know that my son was able to use one and you couldn't. That knowledge will comfort you"

I like my story. It's closer to the bible account.

sir82

Whoever claimed that God created humans as such that you describe?

You did:

Sir, what if God simply knows that we are not capable of handling absolute moral direction just as children are not capable of handling a very sharp kitchen knife? I mean he wouldn't be much of a God if he didn't have greater power in every way than us would he?

It just makes you mad at God

You are the 2nd believer on this forum with whom I've had a discussion that has accused me of this. Is that in the "Primer for debating for believers 101" ?

Why is it that when I point out flaws in logic, it somehow makes me "mad" at God? I'm not mad at anyone.

How do you personally justify your existence by your own morality? How has that solution been working out for you?

I don't follow. I'm just trying to figure out the logic of a God who is incapable of evil demonstrating his love by creating beings which are capable of evil, then punishing them for exercising that option.

I don't justify my existence at all. I exist - end of story. How I came to exist - that's what I'd like to find out - I don't know if that is possible though.

Taking One for the Team

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