Taking One for the Team

by Perry 50 Replies latest jw friends

betterdaze

***Why is it that believers always call foul when someone challenges them?***

They cry foul for the same reasons non-believers do, they're defending their position.

Let me spell it out, once more... The challenge in the original post was from Perry to Memorial attenders, not believers vs. non-believers on the existence of God/Jesus. One would expect a forum full of non-believers to weigh in with their opinion on the subject. But they immediately cried foul. Have any addressed the subject at hand? No.

***If a non-believer started a thread directed at another flavor of non-believer (is there such a thing?), you would never hear them whining about some believer hijacking their thread, in fact they would love the debate.***

We agree. That is not the case in this instance. Go back and read Perry's post, in which he elaborated on another's comment about the Memorial. Then, he specifically addresses lurkers on the subject of the Memorial. He never proposed a debate on the existence of Christ, though apparently he was baited into that rather easily and has been kept dancing for your entertainment.

You also ask if there's such a thing as different flavors of non-believers? Of course there are, these forums are living proof! I for one enjoy the fact that not everyone here has to be shoe-horned into one camp or another. Most of us left that black-or-white, all-or-nothing mentality at the Kingdom Hall, where it belongs.

***No believer ever answers that question.***

Nice black-and-white thinking! Still, I tend to agree with you. What has that got to do with "Taking One for the Team?" Hence my suggestion on starting another thread.

Anyway, can we safely assume no one on this thread, including Perry, will see each other at the Memorial this year? :–)

~Sue
Inquisitor

Forgive my presumptuousness in calling you a Christian, Sue betterdaze. Your defense of a bigoted Christian had me confused. Wanting to get back on the topic is one thing. Arguing in favour of a person who attempts to demean the beliefs of JWs (or those of other persuasions) is quite another. You fail to take into account that Perry attempts to drag ANYONE (not just lurkers) into his pharisaical microscope. I was condemning that self-righteous approach esp in light of his (dubious?) protests that he was similarly mishandled by a JW. That was my message. If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that little point, then you do not comprehend what some of us posters are trying to do in this thread. And if that is the case, you are guilty of doing exactly what you accused me of: shooting the messenger. INQ
startingover

Why is it that believers always call foul when someone challenges them? ... No believer ever answers that question.
Starting Over,
Where did I call foul? .. since you use words like "always" and "no believer ever". By the way, would you care to explain how you personally justify your own existence in light of your own moral failures? All my other opponents failed to do so. Will you fail as well? Or, do you just not like those that ask the wrong questions? Independent thinking I believe it's called. Share with us your enlightenment.
OK, believers "most of the time" and "some" believers... Yeah, after rereading, the final statement was rather black and white.
Sue, you got me too, as my post was instigated by your comments.
Perry, I guess I don't understand why I have a need to justify my existance. I feel no need. Apparently you feel yourself to be such a moral failure, but I don't. Have I done the things you referred to earlier on this subject? Sure. But you are stuck on the idea that there is some invisible creature somewhere that cares about that and will hold me accountable, but I have not seen any proof of it's existance.
jaguarbass

None of that crap tells the simple story that the Man took one in the gut for all of us so we don't have to take the ultimate shaft at death. And what payment does the Man ask in return for the Roman spearhead in his side? Just once in a while drink some wine and eat some bread and give him thanks.
It seems so easy doesn't it? But, it's not in reality.
"No One can come to me unless it is granted to Him by the Father".
So, which is it lurkers? Do you reject Christ because you're scared of what people will think? Or, do you reject him because you are are unable to come to him by divine mandate and your own "total depravity"?
The problem with your thinking as I see it is this: That man is God, If he is God he took one in the gut for us because he is crazy. He made us, He knew we would sin. And then knowing all of that he had himself hung on a tree. Are you sure you didnt jump out of the frying pan and into the fire on this one?
It's like this, I have 4 dogs. I can tell them I am going to go away today, dont piss and shxt in the house till I come back in 24 hours, If you dont deffacate in the house I will let you live all your days in my house.
So I go away for 24 hours and when I come home I have a hissy fit because they Piss and shat in my home. (Like I didnt know they would.) So now I tell them you are going to live outside in the dog house. In the heat and cold.
Then I start feeling remorseful so I go out and tell the dogs I am going to kill myself but if your puppies believe I killed myself for you and them they can live in my house.
Well guess what when I kill myself Nobodies living in my house. And guess what your going to say I am crazy for acting that way. All because dogs do what they do and humans do wha they do. Eat a piece of fruit?
I'm going to help you out with the above analogy, If there is a God he would be all knowing, If he is not all knowing he cant be god. So God knew man was going to sin before he made him. Just like I know dogs will deffacate in a house if left unattended for 24 hours.
Now to have a fit over what I know is gong to occur is insane. And to say men or my dogs had free will doesnt cut it. Because if God knew Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit, they didnt have free will. And if God didnt know Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit. He isnt all knowing and cant be God.
And if he made them and knew when he made them that they were going to eat the fruit and then had a fit over it thats insane.
So if there is a god, which I am not saying there isn't. Your Jesus torture steak story dont cut it. You need ot go back to the drawing board. And figure out what's going on. Or be like a lot of people that dont know what's going on. But at dont make up foolish stories to try to control peoples behavior and pocket books.
With his creation running amuk and going bazerk down here, you think he is getting his jollies by us bowing down to him? If he has any power at all. He should restore order and justice.
And no one can come to God unless it is graned him by the father. Think about what you are saying. That is predestination. If God did not destine someone to be saved or as you quote, grant it, then that person is going to hell.
Of course you did not jump out of the frying pan and into the fire because you are saved and gwine up to heaven. Give me a break.
You have fallen for the oldest con going, religion.
You went from one group of people telling you what to think to another group of people telling you what to think. And I can tell you right now they told you to tell me no one is telling you what to think. You have Jesus, you are free. Yah right.
What you are doing is trying to make sense out of nonsense. Men has to put everything in its place and explain everything. And your Jesus explanation isnt working.
Perry

Jaguarbass,
What you are doing is trying to make sense out of nonsense. Men has to put everything in its place and explain everything. And your Jesus explanation isnt working.
YOU have a sin problem. You are a moral mechine that doesn't work right. From my analysis, the mechine works just enough to get folks really good and pissed off, because they can get a really good picture of what life would be like with their morality harnessed , only they can't get there.
The WT has a solution for the more visible of these lapses.....disfellowship them..... flush them down the toilet.
My opponents have another solution to this problem. Here's a summary of their personal solutions:
1. Stick your head in the sand and don't think about
2. Believe there is no "Sky Daddy" to empower you
3. Accept failure
4. Act like you are proud of your failures, pretend they are successes
Read you own sentence above....slowly. You are actually promoting nonsense as a solution! According to you view, WE are non-sense, just accept it.
So there you have it. The list of solutions from my opponents is getting longer:
5. Accept "non-sense" as a way of addressing your very real and tangible sin problem.
Of course, millions of people including myself would publically testify that what Jesus said he'd do if a person comes to them, is true. He would give them a new spirit. He would replace their heart of stone with a soft heart of flesh. The Holy Spirit would "clean house" in the new home of God, your heart.... his temple.
Failure and ignorance, which is the olny options that you and my other opponents can come up, with is not even an option. Victory becomes an increasingly common occurance as the mind get's used to the authority of the new spirit inside. These things are done as a gift to the new believer. God gives you victory since you obviously cannot acheive it yourself.
Where's the catch? You don't get to take any credit for your new blessings. And, there are many. You don't get to count time, and be applauded by men. You will become saddened when seemingly nice people present denial, failure, and non sensical confusion as a solution to sin as they have done here.
Perry

Inquisitor wrote of me:
a bigoted Christian had me confused.
Is asking questions bigoted? Which questions in particular were bigoted? Is the thing that prompted you to call me a bogot, the same thing that prompted the JW on the street corner to call me a liar in the link you provided?
a person who attempts to demean the beliefs of JWs
So, am I to take this statement of yours as an indication of your approval of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses? If the answer is no, are you starting to feel confused again?
(or those of other persuasions)
I may have not shown approval in your race to declare moral defeat for yourself, but I think that I made it clear that I'm ok with whatever choices you make for yourself and anybody else for that matter.
self-righteous approach
Show me where I was self-righteous specifically. If I displayed that, I truly am sorry because in reality I can generate no righteousness by my own effort. I thought that I made that abundantly clear a number of times that I believe unregenerated humans cannot generate real righteousness. It seems that you paint Christians who accept a pardon as self righteous, the same way JW accuse Christians.... even though JW's are the ones who reject God's instrument of a "not guilty" pronouncement. In other words, if a JW simply pronounces themselves as righteous (worthy of eternal life) then you seek to protect their belief from scrutiny as you did up above, even if it is pointed out by their own theology how much in error that is. But if a Christian admits his crimes and accepts God's pardon and pronouncement of "not guilty" (righteous) then, you accuse that person of being self-righteous. This seems backwards. Can you elaborate a little bit more on your way of thinking?
jaguarbass

Hello Perry: If you found something that works for you, I am happy for you.
I can see and tell if a person makes some kind of sense of this life, right or wrong, they can have a degree of peace, and contentment.
Perry

Jaguarbass,
God bless you! But, this thread was about how JW's reject Jesus Christ at each memorial and how that has been working out for them spiritually/morally.
Rock on dude!
sir82

1. My opponents agree that they are all liars, thieves, and adulterers. (as I was btw, and my flesh still is)
When someone who does not know me, has literally never met me, knows nothing about me, accuses me of adultery, a line has been crossed.
Do you learn to insult and lie about people you do not in your church? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any scriptures wherein Jesus followed that pattern.
Why would I ever want to be a Christian, if it means insulting and falsely accusing perfect strangers to make a "point"?
I am happy you have found a belief system that works for you. If this is what happens when one is "born again", however, I think I will pass.
Zico

I am happy you have found a belief system that works for you. If this is what happens when one is "born again", however, I think I will pass.
Not all born agains are like that Sir...

Taking One for the Team

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