A big bang
How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?
by Guest with Questions 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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writetoknow
I don't understand your point about Jehovah being fired? I don't think he had anything to do with the teaching of mans organization. No more then a scientist finding a solution to one of mans worst illness and a group sicko steal it and uses it to make a virus to kill millions of people.
That about like saying all science is bad because it created the nucler bomb. The honesty of science hasn't been a light to the world either. it has and is sold for the highest price during war for greed. And sciene has an equally good and bad reputation as does religion. Science has been the power been behind all wars of mankind and who every has the best science wins the world.
Man without God is no better then man with God if he does not love God's commandments.
There is no government that has existed on earth that does not have rules and laws and those laws always become oppressive just like Jehovah's Witnesses became a oppressive organization over many years.
People that will destroy religion and band it from the earth are no less controling or oppressive then the religion they are destroying. Controling thought in any form is the exact oppression your trying toget away from. Millions of people live under oppressive religion that hates the rest of the world and would like to destroy any belief that isn't theirs they are oppressive people. Many govnenments that have no belief in God or Christ in modern time are extremely oppressive to their people.
How does hate create less hate? How does control create less control? How does blaming create less blaming? You see your missing the point people don't seperate religion from God and Faith they blame God for the religions of this earth. Just like you do by firing Jehovah. So with religion gone it does not mean people will have more faith. No they will not be allowed to have faith or practice their faith in any form.
So we have come full circle man says I can rule my life better then God can rule me. God says ok then do it your way. Mans says God help me because I made a mess of things. God helps man and gives him his Son. Man takes God's Sons words builds his governments and empires and blames God for giving him his Son and his word. God says that not the purpose of my Son or his word. Man says we think it is we know better and we hate you for oppressing us
Parent says to a child that has come of age I don't like what your doing that not what I taught you it is going to ruin your life. Child says I know better. Parent says ok I love you enough to let you try your own way. Child fines out mom was right after ruining their life. Instead of saying they were wrong child blames mom and hates her because mom didn't stop her from doing it in the first place.
God is the bloody rage people wipe their hands on for all their problems. What will happen when their is no more bloody rag to wipe their hands on. Well man was created in God's imagine ... who's next?
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Qcmbr
So to sum it up there seems to be a sentiment that getting rid of religion would be a good thing?
Most if not all religions teach as their core principles:
1/ Love and sacrifice
2/ Hope
3/ Personal change towards an improved self
4/ Kindness and forgiveness
5/ Friendship and service one to another
6/ Hard work and honesty
7/ Constant self evaluation and a duty to your neighbour
The US is derided here as some example of being backward. The US has saved the larger world twice from facism and communism. The US feeds the world's hungry. The US is largely responsible for the tremendous growth of the world economy with all its attendant benefits. Compare this to the two large states that tried to impose atheism upon its people.
If anyne cares to stop and think about why bad things happen its because of people never because of a belief system - people choose to believe a certain thing and they choose to act a certain way. Its like saying cars should be banned because cars are responsible for many deaths - well most studies show that drivers cause deaths and its fairly exceptional for an unmanned vehicle to do damage. If religion was removed the people who do awful things in the name of religion would still do them. Wars would still get fought, fanatics would still blow themselves up, children would still get abused, greed and corruption would still be around. The garden of life would be a poorer place if you remove the roses just because you don't like thorns.
Some religions promote stupid things because someone somewhere wrote their own hate / ignorance into it. Stupid people filled with hate is not a preserve of religion nor must we make the somewhat naive suggestion that there is a humanist utopia around the corner if people could just stop reading scriptures and praying.
Science v religion is a somewhat disingenious argument as well - there is no demarcation line between the two - there are plenty of scientific believers and anyone who doesn't believe that the scientific community isn't biased, influenced by agenda based bodies and splintered on some core beliefs , in fact operates on many levels just like organised religions do is being willfully blind. Christians have Revelations to keep them scared at night - the doomsday scientific studies keep everyone else quaking. -
serotonin_wraith
Most if not all religions teach as their core principles:
1/ Love and sacrifice
2/ Hope
3/ Personal change towards an improved self
4/ Kindness and forgiveness
5/ Friendship and service one to another
6/ Hard work and honesty
7/ Constant self evaluation and a duty to your neighbourName one thing on that list that you need to be religious in order to do.
The US feeds the world's hungry.
Ho, ho. http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/163437715.html
"The US government tends to be motivated by interests, not humanitarian principles.
Denmark gives the most amount of its GDP (1.01%) to developing countries; Norway gives 0.91%; the Netherlands give 0.79% and so on until the end of list, where the USA sits. Yes, America ranks DEAD LAST in foreign aid at a pathetic 0.1% of its GDP, compared to the other 21 nations listed as developed nations. The idea that the US government is a heroic bunch that runs around the world helping the poor and the disempowered is not backed up by the evidence. We have one of the stingiest governments on earth.
Most Americans believe the US spends 24% of its budget on aid to poor countries; the actual amount is well under a quarter of 1%. Our country also ranks #5 on asylum-seeker acceptance rates (#1 is Denmark and #2 is Canada). "If religion was removed the people who do awful things in the name of religion would still do them.
“Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things-that takes religion.” - Stephen Weinberg.
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Terry
The world is people.
People come all ways: smart/stupid, rational/irrational, passive/aggressive.
All religion does is give an easy out. Irrational people who don't wish to think for themselves would still be easy targets for insidious manipulation.
Religion just gives ritual to magic-thinking.
Somebody always deigns to speak for the "invisible" and hold their hand out for payment.
Mystical "answers" are made up out of whole cloth. You don't need religion to fit everybody for garments.
Ever see people with the Astrology column of the newspaper? How about the Magic 8 ball? Or, Dear Abby?
Thinking for yourself requires effort. Some people aren't up to the exertions.
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UnConfused
Paster Parker and Paster Stone already answered this question:
http://www.southparkzone.com/episode.php?vid=1012 -
Guest with Questions
First I want to say that for me faith and religion are two different issues. Faith is a belief in God, religion is man-made. I haven’t commented to everyone but will eventually. Bear with me I’ve had a toothache (tooth crowned) for the past week. If at any time I sound angry, I'm not. But I am passionate about my beliefs and I will defend them.
I think they'd just find something else to kill each other over. But imagine if all the money that goes into religion went to the poor and hungry and diseased, unfortunately human nature isn't like that (with or without religion)?
I agree that with or without religion we would continue to kill each other. I personally have my doubts that the money would go to the poor and hungry. In spite of of what some think, Christians as a whole are the most generous; they collectively are feeding the hungry, comforting the hurting, helping the sick.
Without organized religion rearing its ugly head, we could prob make communism work. Hell, we could make anarchism work.
Wars would gradually cease, as people don't want to die and not be rewarded, and crime might surge for a while, but it would come right back down because no one would mind sentencing the death penalty.
And I could hug my mom again.
Communism has never worked. Russia, China, Cuba. They were always a few dictators that controlled the masses.
Why would wars gradually cease? We would still have that herd mentality and follow "a leader" who we would follow and do what we are told. The masses would not collectively gather together and kindly decide what was best for all. I truly believe that mass hysteria would ensue and people would do as they pleased but then something would kick in and a strong controlling leader would take over. It’s our nature to follow someone, whether it’s God or a man. I do believe that a strong leader will come and everything will be peaceful for a while. People will be numbed into thinking everything is well and then after (could it be 3 ½ years?) he shows his true colours; he’s nothing but a mean controlling dictator. People in general are followers and he will have no problem getting them to follow them especially with promises that with him all will be utopia.
This is the fault of one strange cult that you can’t hug your mom and I feel for you. At least I still can hug my mom but who knows how long that may last
It would be nice without this barrier to science. Religion has always been a barrier to progress. Religion started the first Dark Ages (and a whole lot of wars). Religion is threatening to start another Dark Ages: if the Jihadists or the Jehovah's Witlesses have their way, we will be in another Dark Ages.
Without religion holding us back, now all we need is to get those government regulators off our backs, and the free enterprise system will be able to solve our problems without the hinderances. The bad companies that initiate fraud will go bust as their reputations will be exposed like the Watchtower Society is today, and they will have as hard a time getting back their footing. Good companies will rise and produce ever better product. And that's as good as any regulator can hope for.
Do you realize that modern science grew out of Christianity. God created science. There is no barrier between God and science. Anti religion, I believe, is going to start another dark age. How would you get govt regulators off our backs, how will we get a free enterprise system, how will bad companies that initiate fraud go bust, how will good companies rise and produce ever better products? It’s a nice fantasy but how will this come about?
I think it all depends on the methods used to get it that way.
If all of us atheists banded together to wipe out religious people, that would not be a good thing. And then we'd have to execute/imprison all the 'offenders'. Basically that would be a huge violation of personal rights, and when one basic right can be destroyed so can all your other rights... not a pretty picture, it would probably be almost as bad as if everyone was required to be Christian or Muslim.
BUT on the other hand, if all religion was eliminated due to personal choice, like if scientists learn much more about the natural universe to the point where only retards would even consider god. Then that would be a good thing, because everyone is ALLOWED to be religious, they just don't want to be.
Then I think the world would be a wonderfull place and you end up with an advanced society ruled by humanism... (There would still be crimes commited by evil people.)
But the same applies Christianity, if everyone WANTED to be christian, then you would have a worldwide brotherhood of extremely peacefull happy people... (There would still be crimes commited by evil people.)
Unity is a good thing, no matter who is united. Uninformity is a bad thing, no matter who is assimilated.
First I do think it will come to that. Anti Christians will try to wipe us out. I don’t believe a time will ever come that all religion will be eliminated due to personal choice. The choice will be forced upon us. Why is it so unpalatable that God could be behind science. Why would you think that only retards could even consider that there is a God.. I have to remember that at the age of 18 you see everything black and white. You seem to think that without religion the world would be a wonderful place; that you end up with an advanced society ruled by humanism (hasn’t this always been the downfall of mankind; someone will show them utopia only for it to become a nightmare. Show me a time without religion that the world was "wonderful". Without religion there really is no evil. That is a religious concept. People will continue to hurt each other and it will only escelate. Religion is made up by man; it’s of his own creation. So by taking God out of the equation you are still left with man creating this mess. We killed each other, we were inhumane to each. You say there is no God well you are still left with the mess at your feet with or without God..
I’m glad you realize that if all people were "truly" Christian this would be a wonderful place. The sad fact is that we aren’t able to maintain it for long lengths of time. I’m a Christian but am the first to admit that I fail to live up to it. That’s why I do believe that Jesus came for the broken. Like everything, Unity has a negative and a positive. Look at the wonderful music that Germany brought and also brought Hitler and his regime ( Hitler/Hiedler was actually Austrian but his evil deeds were done in Germany)
We can already see the benefits when countries move away from religion. Sam Harris wrote:
'Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations' Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms.'
First, is it possible that people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkin etc etc, are writing these books for monetary gain. Talk about parroting. Atheists seem to have their own parrots (flying spaghetti monster?, fairy tales etc etc) It goes to show that we as a people are followers. I can only speak a bit about the Netherlands because I was born there, but not raised there. My extended family live there and I what I see I don’t particularly like. Netherlands condoned prostitution, drugs, bringing in foreigners and they now have a huge mess in their hands. Muslims are taking over Europe. White people are becoming more and more secular, having fewer children and Muslims are having more children. So how do you see Europe in the near future?
Don't forget those great atheist bastions of freedom and socialist workers paradises- USSR, China, Cambodia. Together their wonderful examples of freedom from religion brought about @100 million deaths in the 20th century. Maybe we'll be even luckier in this century and kill half a billion when we finally manage to wipe out every trace of a belief system. Can just imagine all those greenies salivating at the thought of all those dead people. Fertilizer for the trees and plants and room for all the animals.
But according to atheists the problem is with the religious. With socialism we will have paradise. In the end I don’t believe that every trace of a belief system will ever be eradicated but many will try and are trying. I do believe it will get much worse. The sad reality is that atheism is on the rise but will not last long.
oh god, a world without religion? would definitely eliminate alot of the problems.. and the first step, all the religious giving all their money to the church, could donate it to fix thiungs in africa... yeah world would be a better place!
You’re implying that if religion was eliminated a lot of the problems of the world would be eliminated. Where does religion come from, it comes from man. Take God out for a moment, you are still left with the fact that we messed up whether in the name of religion or not. Can you tell me how without religion we can make this a better place? How long has man existed on this earth and we still can’t get it together. Do you really think that all or even a little of the church money would go to fix Africa? As Christians we are followers and God commands us to help our fellow man and I think for the most part we have been obedient. As followers of a man or a few men do you really think the world would be a better place? Think again. Your answer is too simplistic.
First their would be chaos as people wouldn't know what to do without their Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, Yahwah, Buddha, father, son or holy ghost.
But slowly, people would realize that logic and human decency provides the guidance they need.
Then, all would be right in the world again.
Ahhh, perchance to dream .....you're such a tease.
Where would that logic and human decency come from? People coming together and rationally talking together and coming to a mutual agreement with a handshake. What happens if no one can agree? (guess what that will happen)
Again religion comes from man and we haven’t done a very good job, changing the philosphy isn’t going to change anything.
Ahh, perchance to dream...you’re such a tease............no my dreams are based on facts and yes I do believe this nightmare to come will end but only through a strong leader, Jesus.
ajwnm, I don't recall them dying due to atheism.
Richard Dawkins: "I cannot think of any war that has been fought in the name of atheism. Why should it? A war might be motivated by economic greed, by political ambition, by ethnic or racial prejudice, by deep grievance or revenge, or by patriotic belief in the destiny of a nation. Even more plausible as a motive for war is an unshakeable faith that one's own religion is the only true one."
If these people didn’t die due to atheism, then why, how did they die?
I think atheism has always been around but not to the degree that it is today. Can you show me in chart form all the wars and the reasons for them? In the end if there is no God we are still guilty of the autrocities.
I can only "Imagine"..................
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0&mode=related&search=
I thought the link was for I can only Imagine not Imagine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S70gwFcSK9k&mode=related&search=
I'd see a much better world to live in IMHO
Can I ask why you would think it would be a better world to live in? To wish it doesn’t make it so.
Many, like Dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.
Actually, if you read Dawkins, he is careful to say religion is not the root of ALL evil...
Anyway, I would argue that we are just not ready for this yet. If tensions continue, (Islamic, ultra-conservative Christian, etc), then it may be forced upon us. That will be a scary day. Not in the jw "great tribulation" sense, but quite the opposite. People will certainly rebel, in the worst possible way agasint such an effort. At the moment, I see no good comming of it. Maybe in another couple hundred of years, but not now
I agree that things will get worse but not because of religion but inspite of it.
As for misquoting Mr Dawkins here is his website:
for a critical view of Richard Dawkins:
Richard Dawkins does not seem to know history very well . Communist nations have always warred against religion in the name of atheism .I don't think the world would change a whole lot without "christianity" . I know I can't stand christmas exept for the paid holiday at work but the whole thing is all about greed and stupid santa claus and rein deer , give me a break already . It's just a fairy tale that got way out of hand .
See above link regarding Dawkins. I agree that without christianity (if there is no God) that the world will continue to go on as it has. We are responsible for the mess. By the same token I believe that Christians as a whole have done more to help the poor, sick, needy.
My guess is that after a few short moments without religion (or spiritual philosophies) mankind would turn and begin to shift through the ashes that where left and raise it up again.
and again and again...
Will try to respond to the rest of the posts later.
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drew sagan
and again and again...
Just wanted add a little more description to my original post. Mainly that humans will always continue to hold cosmologies that tell them who they are and where they are going. Regardless as to if there is actually a cosmology out their that teaches us what we believe to be the truth about our existence or not, I simply don't believe we (as people) will ever be able to be removed from such ideas.
We can think of a world that would be better off without religion, but to do so would be to imagine a world that does not have people on it in the same position we are all in. In then end I don't think that humans would actually be able to give up such things without changing what it means to be human along the way. -
heathen
I think what's being forgotten is that the US is also in more debt than any other nation mentioned , it's also not in our constitution that we should tax people in order to help other nations. The religionists do tend to take some initiative with charity but clearly only will help as long as there's a buck in it for themselves . We clearly do have the wealthiest religionists in the world here in the US. As a nation there is alot of socialist globalist sentiment but we clearly have too much debt to be concerned with other nations problems . Right now even the euro is kicking our a$$. Really messing things up on a global scale.
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serotonin_wraith
Christians as a whole are the most generous; they collectively are feeding the hungry, comforting the hurting, helping the sick.
Check the statistics again. More secular countries are the most generous.
Do Christians do good things? Absolutely. But we can count their numbers because they do it in the name of their chosen deity. Atheists don't give help in the name of anything, they just want to do it. They don't need to think they'll be rewarded, or be able to pass on their dogma in the process of giving aid.
First, is it possible that people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkin etc etc, are writing these books for monetary gain. Talk about parroting. Atheists seem to have their own parrots (flying spaghetti monster?, fairy tales etc etc) It goes to show that we as a people are followers.
The statistics were originally from the United Nations' Human Development Report (2005). Unless you think they lied for monetary gain?
If these people didn’t die due to atheism, then why, how did they die?
The answer was in the RD quote. Whatever the reasons for war, it's never been atheism.
As for faith and religion being seperate things, without religion you would be a deist at best. Religious teachings are needed in order for people to add in the details, otherwise would you just automatically know in your head all about Jesus or Satan or the Trinity?