How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Were getting closer! What you view as indoctrination isn't indoctrination to some people. What they veiw as your indoctrination isn't perhaps to you. Again every thing your stating on this thread in favor of not having religion and the arguments to support those beliefs can be used to support the beliefs of people that want religion.

    I clearly realize what indoctrination is and there a thin line between teaching and going into indoctrination. I lived long enough to see many groups, nations claim not to be indoctrinated and do very evil things to other not of their group or nation.

    There are many more religeous groups then Christianity the focus herein this tread seem to be on Christain not other groups. To state there is not a war against Christainity is not truthful. To state their is not a war between the two parties system of the United State is not truthful. Both are fighting for their beliefs in running the government it may not be define as physical violent but is a war.

    The fact you label Christianty a danger = a threat - and a threat must be control or done away with. To state comments on this thread are same as all people supporting your veiws is not factual either. You may be moderating you statements, but there are many more people hatings religion. There is not a Christain group today that does not clearly understand their a war to do away with their religion. If laws are enact to take away a person religeous freedoms then indeed it is violence and oppression. If religion take away freedom by enacting their laws it is oppression and violence. That which you want away from and consider a danger. One can only hope when those laws are enacted people will obey the rule of law.

    Again every group holds out a better more enlighten example to explain why their way are better. That is not new. Hilter did and we can go down the list of dictors in the last two thousand year and histroy will repeat itself. Our government does everyday. So again any group can make the facts support their belief system. That is the nature of man and it is their motives and agenda that are revealed in actions.

    People holding your views are intolerant of religion they feel they know whats best and their willing to take steps up to violence and oppression to enforce their ways. There willing to do the exact same thing that was done to them by religion. And when they come to power that power will be used.

    Yes, they will put a civil face on it through rationalized indoctrination of the masses any teachings opposed to that education as stated in this tread will be put down and oppressed because it is a threat and a danger again as stated in this tread. Indoctrination can be defined when it cannot understand or listen to another point of veiw in balance with it onw. Indoctrination is shown in the oppression of another group to uphold power or belief.

    The facts are history repeats itself people use the same logic and tacts to come to power and they use the power to enforce their beliefs upon other groups. To look at the history of man and see all of the power changes and to deny the violence envoled for those changes to take place is a brainwashing of mass perplexity. Not to see the common thread that is the very nature of man and government is in itself the very danger you fear.

    Religion became a part of that thread removing it from the tread does not change man nature it only replaces it with another group. That group is base on hate of another group. That group will use mass indoctrination to support its power freedom will come only if you and I obey those rules laws and teachings of that group.

    And the history of mankind shows that people will not obey and they will still not be please and there will still be people wanting power and once having that power they will corrupt it and protect it and kill to keep it.

    They will replace relgion with something that people can worship. Yes, worship that is the nature of man. No God, worship man, worship science, worship nature, worship the sun, worship government, worship leader, worship movie stars, etc,

    It not going to be this nice little pie in the sky that now being talked about in this thread. So everybody is going to be enlighten and religion just going to go off into the sun set. T

    Again this thread is about doing away with religion and the intolerance for it as stated herein. To believe religion is going to be done away with and a new paradise of freedom and peace for the human race will happen. Sound much like religion and much like indoctrination not base on fact. It sound that we are only changing gods both requires faith to believe in such unreality. When in reality what is happening one group is coming to power over another group the group coming power will enforce it beliefs system on the other group.

    Now the other view being talked about on this tread is religion becomes so dangerous that it becomes a threat to the human race. Governments is then forced to deal with the world wide threat. People that already hold your views see it as a chance to do away with religion through government. They support oppresion of religion to protect themselves. That is the natrue of man.

    That is a realisic view base on human experience and history and what happening through out the world right now and it can only get worst. It is almost word for word what the bilble states well happen written thousand of years ago.

    If history right there will be freedom fighter coming out of the oppressed group and terriost killing in the name of their beliefs because of oppression of their ways and beliefs. A one world government herein advocated ( or one world thought) cannot happen without enforcement.

    That enforcement will not produce a better world it will be an act of violence for protection. The distrust the oppression the massive suffering will not create a world of light and happiness. Because people are all a part of the same tread that connect eveything. When people judge and blame they are blaming and judging themselves.

    It will be the last piece of mans history removed and then it will be soly man governing himself without religion. The religion man himself created and blames God for. What won't be missing is the human nature to blame others. Blaming is the blindness you fear it shuts done all thought and reasonable change - it promotes hate and distrust. If the bible is correct the start of the human race is one person blaming another then killing his brother over religeous views.

    When religion is removed man will blame each other that is a fact of history.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    A few days ago writetoknow wrote:

    : Science has been the power been behind all wars of mankind

    This is among the most ignorant statements I've ever read. Science is about the pursuit of knowledge. It's not something people generally fight about. It is religion, greed, and just plain stupidity that has been behind all of mankind's wars. At most, the science of war gives one side an advantage over the other in a fight initiated by something other than science. People who want to fight over religious beliefs, wealth or politics will do so with their fists if they have nothing else.

    According to ignorant religionists like writetoknow, the science of making flint choppers was the power behind wars between the earliest human tribes. According to him, the science of making swords was behind the wars initiated by the holy religious believers of Europe against the Muslim infidels during the Crusades. According to him, the science of explosives is really behind the sectarian violence between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. According to him, science is really behind the religous fanaticism of Muslim extremists who blow themselves up and kill hundreds of innocents.

    It is exactly this sort of ignorant nonsense that illustrates why religiously inspired ignorance ought to be stamped out.

    AlanF

  • SpawnofNvr
    SpawnofNvr

    Everthing is going to get alot better.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    writetoknow,

    What I view as indoctrination is so, according to multiple dictionaries. Changing the definition is alright if you want to fool yourself, but you'll find the rest of us use the proper meanings.

    You cannot use the same reasons I gave (the dangers of religion) for wanting to keep religion. Religion is the cause of these problems.

    I'm not sure how you can say indoctrination is similar to teaching. Teachers can prove things and it helps people learn facts. Indoctrination does neither.

    I haven't targeted only Christians. If anyone else has you will have to ask them about it. Perhaps they focus on that religion because it is the most dominant where they live. I've debated muslims too. I'll debate someone of any religion, it's just harder to find those people.

    I haven't said all people support me, just that Europe is moving away from religion. If other people want to end religion by physical means, you will have to ask them about it. I don't know of anyone who is suggesting such a thing.

    If religion is outlawed, then yes, that is oppression. Where have I said I want religion outlawed? Where have I said rational discourse would be upheld by laws such as the ones you are presenting? These flights of fancy are wonderful to read, but in no way relate to anything I've said.

    People do like to have something to look up to (worship may be too strong a word). People may even kill over money, or because they feel patriotic, and I've said that if those things happen, we can deal with them then. You are saying 'Do not get rid of religion even though it kills people, because people will kill over something else.' It's like saying I shouldn't lock up a murderer, because there are other murderers in the world who will still murder anyway.

    This nice 'pie in the sky' is already happening. Look at the nations that are moving away from religion. People have better health, better income, more intelligence... You seem to think it will all go terribly wrong, while the evidence is already showing that it isn't.
    Man already governs himself without scripture. I think the only laws found in both the Bible and the law of the land are don't murder and don't steal. Also, don't lie (but that's only when it's perverting the course of justice).

    Your post reads like a movie script- you cannot know all these terrible things will happen. They clearly aren't happening if you look. And if you believe it is God's will that religion will come to have a smaller voice, why are you fighting against it? Don't you want this to happen?

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions
    It is religion, greed, and just plain stupidity that has been behind all of mankind's wars.

    AlanF - First I do agree that greed and stupidity are a couple of reasons for war. You accuse someone else for being ignorant, not factual, and yet you make such a blanket statement, that to my mind, is just as ignorant. Religion is not behind all of mankind’s wars; people are behind mankind’s wars. Yes, some may well have been "religious" people, but to blame all religions is, to my mind, very untrue. I think it’s a lot more complicated than that. I think a lot of things lead up to war. Possibly a few orchestrate it but the masses still have to be in agreement.

    Hitler may well have been Catholic but he, and many of his co-horts dabbled in the occult, so when you state that all religions started wars, do you include Satanism? Europe ( especially Germany and France?) was becoming morally very deviant, especially sexually prior to WW2; there was a lot of anxiety, people didn’t seem to know what to hang on to anymore. Is it possible that in the beginning Hitler in his own warped mind may have wanted to clean up immorality-but ending up with an even more deviant immorality?

    Economics and greed had a lot to do with it. There has always been a few, whether religious or political, that have tried to rule or control the masses and for the most part the masses have accepted it. Could it be that these few use religion as a reason or excuse but that in truth it was for their own gain? Could it be a lust for power and acquisitions of money, land, natural resources etc. War is very lucrative. A few become even more wealthy and the poor...well, they will fight another war when the rich require them to do so; a dime a dozen people.

    I realize that there are conspiracies, Illuminate, Thule Society or whatever, that may be behind wars; that they want to dominate the world. Could the possibility exist of a "New World Order?"; a one world government. I truly don’t know if this is true. Part of me thinks it’s very paranoid, but then again it could be true.

    If you were to stretch the imagination could Europe possibly be heading for trouble down the road; that as a whole it is becoming morally bankrupt? With all the talk of Europeans becoming more secular, more enlightened? more intellectual? healthier? etc you would think that they had found paradise. Having all my extended family there I personally don't see it, but maybe I'm the one that is ignorant. What I see (in the Netherlands) is open sexual immorality (go to Amsterdam's red light district), abortion, out of control drug abuse (were the people more enlightened when they openly allowed drug use), euthenasia, a growing Muslim population; possibly wanting to dominate the world? This is not to ignore the fact that North America has a much bigger problem with drugs and abortion, but like Europe we are becoming more secular. Just don't give me the fantasy that all is well in Europe.

    It is exactly this sort of ignorant nonsense that illustrates why religiously inspired ignorance ought to be stamped out.

    How would one go about stamping out religiously inspired ignorance? Education? Science, Politics is the answer to all our problems? Maybe I should include consumerism (maybe that's the opium of the masses(who can afford it) of today) - you know how we all want stuff! People will gradually discard religion as they become more enlightened? I don’t believe that will ever happen so then the only other alternative to eliminate religion is to eliminate the people who profess faith in anything other than science or politicians. I am not knocking science but when you begin to worship science; that it is the saviour of the world, that's what I have a problem with.

    In the end the above is my opinion. If I'm wrong about anything I will admit it. I realize that sometimes we can come across as arrogant and angry and I hope that I haven't come across that way; that is not my intent. Maybe I am a bit cranky: 3wks of tooth pain could do it for anybody. No I am not ignoring my tooth-getting root canal done tomorrow.

    A few quotes to make us wonder (about world domination by an elite group): the first is an applicable quote and have included it even though I totally disagree with his philosophy. I imagine that in his mind it's a Jewish conspiracy; they want control of the world; or is it Zionists? Okay, I realize that the fourth quote doesn't have anything to do with New World Order. I realize too that it is quote by one sick individual and doesn't necessarily typify beliefs of all atheists.

    Victor E. Marsden: the world is gradually moving towards a One World Government, controlled by an irreproachable hidden hand. In The Protocols, we are given clear insights as to why so many incomprehensible political decisions are made in both local, national and international politics, which seem to continually work against the favour of the masses and in favour of the vested interests of the banking/industrial cartel -- the global power elite.
    David Edwards shows how the propaganda system distorts our understanding of political, personal and spiritual issues, ensuring that we remain passive, conformist, confused and uninformed - and willing to accept the irrational values of corporate consumerism. He argues that we need to master the arts of "intellectual self-defence", in order to become able to challenge the "necessary illusions" of a system that subordinates people and planet to the drive for profit.
    Winston Churchill is an interesting individual, as he later came to the conclusion that there was indeed a master conspiracy at work in the major events of the world, when he wrote the following in 1920: "From the days of Spartacus——Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, to those of Trotsky (Russia)... this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization... has been steadily growing."
    Berhardi, a general retired from the German General Staff, made a number of social darwinist arguments about the necessity and benefits of war; war was a very important element of natural selection weeding out the weak and unfit and keeping nations and ‘‘races’’ virile and vigorous.
    a new scale of national state——‘‘world power’’——was going to emerge in the 20th C had been around for some time; Alexis de Tocqueville had forecast this in the 1840s and Seeley had done so in the 1880s.
  • writetoknow
    writetoknow

    Auctally if you look at my early comments regarding indoctrination I quoted. directly from the Oxford Dictionary.

    What I have continualy stated in this thread is very simple when people or group become intolerant and oppress another groups for whatever reason they are no better then the people they oppress. To me; and you are correct (not the dictionary) that takes a form of indoctrination.

    Is the dictionary now the infaliable word of God? And to disagree with it a person should be condemn? Your statements are so agressive and intolerent over a defination in the holy dictionary.

    Sound crazy doesn't it? Well I do have a point. The point; one can become self-righeous over science, religion, a dictionary, government, politics, law, business. People can lable and be intolerent over anything that they believe is factual. That is the human factor its not science, its not religion, its not politics, it not business but the human being that are in these that are the problem.

    Open mind: accessible to new ideas; unprejudiced

    There are some reasonable comments in this thread for both side of the this issue. There are some hate fill comments and labeling in this thread. That is human nature and this thread speak volumes that people cannot agree on most issues.

    Can one make a new world based on goose stepping; anyone that disagrees is consider a threat and labled as stupid a retard to be done away with?

    We live at a time where there is more knowledge then every in the history of mankind and yet there is more hatard and intolerent then every before. People trust nothing they have no respect for anything but they want respect -- why?

    It simple every insitution of mankind is being exposed as corrupt. No one thinks a person make an statement without an agenda or a bad motive. People are killing people because they had a bad day or was picked on in school.

    It interesting I've been labled all kinds of things in this thread it actually funny to me. I am serious, I don't belong to any organized religion haven't in some 30-years., I never disgreed that religion wasn't going to be done away with. I simply said I believe in God. From that statement all kinds of assumption have been made.

    I not bitter at organized religion although I had many bad experience with organized groups. I have meant so really good people in those groups that show love and kindness and are open mind people. I have meant people that do not believe in God and they have been good and kind people as well. I have looked at both side of the issue and the truth is people that want religion gone from the earth have the same spirit as hateful people in religion there is not difference. They cannot see any truth but theirs. They have a personal prejudice that runs so deep they feel they have the educated right to lable religious people as evil.

    If I knew a Christian that acted like that I would have nothing to do with them. I wouldn't want them as a friend or a neighbor. Who wants to live with a bigot? So all these people leaving religion as stated in this thread are coming togather in groups that act like Christian I would not be around and this is going to be a better place?

    I made a statement that there is enough blame to go around. All parts of human society have been responsible for wars not just religion. So I states science has been all wars. What was meant? Jee, who devolped the atom bomb and gases and all this great killing stuff we use on each other. And most war or world domination has come from the nations that had the best fighting equipment knowledge/science invented those war tools. Now we know it not science fault but the men that misused that science but we have no tolerence for religion that greedy men misused.

    Again making the point humans can justify anything behind a good cause. If greedy science devolped a drug the killed your family then its exposed as corrupt does that mean we should outlaw science?

    But when you talk about such holy things as science and look at the real facts in how it has also been misused and corrupted for greed look at religious fevor in this thread. Does that not scare a you? That people could become so self-righteous over science? Or any subject?

    What is it about mankind that they find a subject and exalt themselves over their fellowman? They listen to the fact other men have given through education and books judge from those infaliable words and destroy others. Can anyone take seriously people that are corruptable and put infaliable faith in their words in any area of human life. Perhaps we need to outlaw life next?

    People hate religion because men have misused it. After it is gone then we will still have men misused the dictionary - I mean who knows?

    So a new world order built on intolerance and oppression of religion does not address that main factor of human nature.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Wow... just wow.
    The dictionary definition you gave supports me. In a discussion in which English is the language of choice, I would prefer all the words used to be in accordance with an English dictionary. I'm sorry about that, it's just how language and communication works.
    'Aggresive' and 'intolerant' are poorly chosen words to describe my behaviour. You may have got their meanings wrong too, if you don't like to use dictionaries. But from my understanding of those words, I haven't acted that way at all. It's just a fact that the dictionary lists the meanings of words. Except in your head, apparently. When you say I hold it high it's like saying I hold gravity to be real. Yes. Anyone who doesn't deserves ridicule.
    I haven't given any hate filled comments. Debates can get heated, not usually hateful. But those words do look similar so I can understand if you got them mixed up.

    Can one make a new world based on goose stepping; anyone that disagrees is consider a threat and labled as stupid a retard to be done away with?

    No. Have I said that? No.

    I haven't labelled you in any way.
    You continue to think that non religious people hate religion and want to do away with it. I have explained several times that people are moving away from religion- that's it. They just see no good reason to believe. It's a calm and gradual change of mind.

    Science has been misused. Religion teaches their followers to kill. Luckily, not everyone follows this. You say you're not part of any organized religion, but you do follow the bible, and the Bible says to kill people. People don't misuse religion when they kill- they are doing what their religion tells them to do.
    And again, even if other problems come along in the future, why can't we think more about the problem of religion? You don't refrain from locking up a murderer because there are more to take his/her place.

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    Religion fills a need in many people. You can ban religion but you won't eliminate the need.

    For religion to be eliminated it would need to be replaced by something else. For the life of me, I cannot think to what that might be so I'm not sure what the world would be like.

    As for wars, they have had many objectives, but the main means of motivating someone to fight has been either religion or political pride.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    For religion to be eliminated it would need to be replaced by something else.

    Reality.

    Plenty of people don't believe in any religion, and they do just fine.

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions

    I'm not sure how you can say indoctrination is similar to teaching. Teachers can prove things and it helps people learn facts. Indoctrination does neither.

    www.definition-essay.com/categories_defessay/education/I.shtml

    Indoctrination in Education: An Analysis This three-page undergraduate paper examines indoctrination in modern education. The author notes that today's classrooms emphasize rote memorization and indoctrination instead of fostering the development of critical thinking skills. As a result, modern schools are failing to produce young people capable of functioning in the world beyond the classroom.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/indoctrination-2?method=6

    In q ·doc q ·tri q ·na q ·tion
    n.

    The act of indoctrinating, or the condition of being indoctrinated; instruction in the rudiments and principles of any science or system of belief; information. Sir T. Browne. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

    Indoctrination

    is instruction in the fundamentals of a system of belief (such as a political ideal, philosophy or religion).

    Religious indoctrination

    A recent study of child abuse in Samoa found that, "Religious indoctrination was significant in the promotion and prevention of abuse and family violence, depending on one's perspective," [3] thus suggesting that the effects of such indoctrination could vary from the positive to the negative.

    Religious indoctrination is a subject of academic interest. An upcoming volume, The Costs of Autonomy: Personal Essays on the Morality of Religious Indoctrination is planned to analyze the effects of religious indoctrination on academics.

    Political indoctrination

    An example of the use of political indoctrination on children is seen in It's Elementary

    [4], a teacher training video[5] by Academy Award winner Debra Chasnoff and Helen Cohen.[6] It illustrates children undergoing political indoctrination in schools across the country showing real examples of school activities, faculty meetings, and classroom discussions.

    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=indoctrination

    Main Entry: in q ·doc q ·tri q ·nate

    Pronunciation: in-'dääk-tr&-"nAt
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): -nat q ·ed; -nat q ·ing
    Etymology: probably from Middle English endoctrinen, from Anglo-French endoctriner, from en- + doctrine doctrine
    1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : TEACH
    2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

    http://www.babylon.com/definition/indoctrination/

    indoctrination
    n. teaching, instruction; instruction in a particular doctrine or set of beliefs, brainwashing

    http://www.iconoclastpress.com/bookAlternativeEducationSchoolLearningIndoctrinationConventi.htm

    Knowledge is a poor consolation, a worshipped failure, for it has not succeeded in emancipating us.

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