How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

writetoknow

Well then any form of teaching would be indoctrination according to your veiw. But your saying it has to be your form and you have a greater right to your ideas then anyone else.
I think you need to re-read my post it I agreed religion will be destroyed for it actions.
Perhaps the point that offends you is that I state the same self-rightous hatard you avocate creates the same self-righteous hate you want so badly to be done with
Your view judges all religion and your justifies destroying it off the earth - whats new and better about that?
Your willing to destroy and imprison people that a part of religion? Becasue they won't change their view to yours. Whats new about that?
And I am a retard?
Well the track records of nations that hate religion is no better but you know that it just doesn't fit into your doctrines . But we hate religion for twisting the truth to make their organization point. Whats new about this? So an organization mistreated you so you have nothing better but the same mistreatment for others. Whats new about that?
Lets see how does that work Jehovah's Witness oppress me they brain wash people. So I want all religion and oppress and destroy. That really something new!
I think it would have been a much better world if Hilter had won world war two! And I certainly think china that hates religion should rule the world. There are great nations to live under. Oh yes, Russia just one of there leader killing 70-million people in the name of a state god - well thats new and a better world.
Seems to me lots of blame to go around ain't that the point power no matter who has it corrupts and you know my friend that never going to change. And we know every person on this earth thinks they can do a better job so we will never run out of dictors wanting to stand up and enforce their ideas on others. And yes religion or otherwise they will oppress and kill to stay in power. Your world does not address that issue because no one on earth can address that issue through government.
The point is man cannot govern and rule over their fellow human without hurting them. So rather I like or not or you do God still wins. Weither you believe He exist or not because of bad religion or science or someone teachings that perverts God doesn't matter- He is not going away.
We can kill everyone professing faith burn all the books destroy the bible and bring new light to the world and God will still be there and He will still be right man that cannot govern himself without oppression. And he proves right if they destroy religion. We can cry about all we like and say that not fair God is making me worship Him and it don't matter. Guess what He has the power and who every has the power rules.
Somebody must have been pretty smart to stated all of this - who knows how many years ago and for it to come true. Sounds like we've been warned. It don't matter if I like it or not it does change God warning one bit. Doesn't matter if I corrupte that warning or disgree with it or blame God for giving it. He has the power.
Now if you can take every little child and indoctrinate them that there is no God. And disfellowship everyone that doesn't agree by death it just might work. There might not be a God to blame on earth for our problems. Do you think men will set up sciene as their new god or power or money or whatever. What is this thing with men anyway? They get read of one god and worship something else? Some man finds a new form of government and they build a staute and treat his words like a bible? And all of sudden their willing to kill other for their beliefs amazing isn't?
I wonder if there will be a state new age faith or if man will have a seperation between new age faith and state? I wonder if it will be taught in schools or outlawed? Or perhaps none of that will work perhaps the only faith that will be allowed will be in men or government or something? And how will they deal with violators of those rules?
But the really smart people in the know running things won't worship a man? We would all live in paradise and peace when the earth is fill with "no knowlege of God " and only smart people that knows whats best for mankind rules the rest of us.
May be they will finally create that elite super race and put the weak in gas chambers or something like that - right. But science has advance so far I sure we could just abort the ones that didn't meet the governments standards. Does that mean Government is playing - dare I say God?
Does that mean the perfect government on earth to ever exist after destruction of religion will destroy any that don't agree with them. Because they have tried the old ways and because they didn't work they now have the right to judge and kill all those oppose to their views. Well isn't that the way they get their start by killing anyone who disgrees. I am sure the will become much more benevolent after the destroy religion. Kind of sounds like man has come ful circle the things they hate about God they must know do? I wonder could it be that there is truth in those old fake words of Jesus Christ that what ever you judge will be your judgement. That what you put off on others will come back to you. I almost forgot if we do away with the bible and Christ words then that rule would no longer exist so everything would be perfect.
What a retard I am
serotonin_wraith

writetoknow,
People teach children things that can be proven, things that can be tested, things that the child is welcome to go off and research. Religious teaching (indoctrination) teaches children things that cannot be proven, at an age when the child cannot think for themselves, when they must rely on their parents for knowledge. I don't have a greater right to my views than anyone else. However, my views can be proven. Religious views cannot.
I don't have self-righteous hatred. If it comes across that way in my posts I apologize. The written word cannot always give off the right connotation. I would call it a passionate attitude.
My views do justify doing away with religion. However, I do not act in any militant way (nor would I) and my thoughts cannot be held under scrutiny, they are only thoughts. Thought crime doesn't exist (yet).
Am I willing to destroy or imprison religious people? Absolutely not. Within Europe, discussion, science and reason have been enough to lower the number of people calling themselves religious. In the UK, a recent survey by BBC Radio placed the number of churchgoers at 10%, with that number falling each year. George Bush spoke about how he talked to God before invading Iraq. When asked whether he ever prayed with Bush, our Prime Minister Tony Blair laughed and said he had not. The question posed to him would have resulted in mockery if he had stated the opposite. Religion is on the decline in my area of the world, and all without the act of murdering religious people.
I haven't called you a retard. I understand why people believe in religion. It gives hope, comfort, a feeling of safety. But then again, an alcoholic could make the same case for why he/she should be allowed to continue drinking.
You mention my childhood and how I was indoctinated. Yes, of course I want to stop other children going through that. It's mental child abuse. Is it the only reason I say what I do? Not at all, but it certainly gives me drive. You act like it's a bad thing to want to prevent it.
You give examples of nations without religion, because the Government forces it. How about a better solution- nations where the population have decided as individuals not to believe in a god, but still being allowed every opportunity to? You may notice countries like Sweden and Denmark haven't been oppressing their people, and they have the most atheists.
You ramble on a bit then about how God will always be around no matter what. Of course, you don't back it up. So until you can offer more proof for this God than there is for a magical invisible pixie, it's really just preaching.
And I hope I cleared up your misconceptions about wanting to outlaw religion. I don't want it outlawed. Things will change if people just think.
writetoknow

Well, I appreciate your reply. If people don't find peace within themselves there will be no peace. God has and does acted in peoples lives and a person that has never experience God can only think it is a fair tale myth and discredit the person through an intellectual agrument.
That is a fact, so the two will never see eye to eye. When you tell a person that the Spirit person they commune with is not real - they think you are as crazy as what you think they are. Weither that spirit being produces love or hate it is real to those people who have experience it.
It is a fact of the entire history of man. That is why my friend it won't go away without violence on both side because it is a passion issue that has rage since mans existent. The two cannot agree one is based on faith with a real life experience for that person or group the other is base on intellectual thinking that as real to that person or group.
Whatever, human or god or God if it is base on hate it is the same weither you tie religion, government, corportation, or personal too it. It produce indoctrination of its ideas. Because hate is arrogant and anyone that is arrogant has a heart of hate and that heart must remove all things they believes is causing them the hate/discomfort. Removal is done through indoctrination or war or personal violence.
I have personal know many people that live in the counties you tout as being superior to our country. I will tell its all in who you talk too and all in who you want to listen too. There is indoctrination on both sides as to who is superior.
The core facts of life; people are never happy they always want something better and they always hold out something or someone as having it better. When that does not happen because life is not fair they get angry.
Another fact of life people start with a good idea a good motive they want to help others the ideas grows and then protection of the ideas become more important then the reason it started that is corruption it will never go away and if someone thinks it will they have more faith then I claim to have in God.
Bottom line agreed or not any honest person know from life you cannot associate with any program, business, school, college, religion, government, person, job etc., that there is not an indoctrination and if that indoctrination is not obey there are consequents for not folowing the rules.
indoctrinate: teach, to accept ideas uncritically. train, instruct, discipline, brainwash, propagandize.
Freedom is then defined by living in harmony with those rules. It is freedom for some to destroy religion for other it is oppression. If you have personally found an indoctrination that works for you that is great. But to state or advocate it not another form of indoctrination is false. That is the exact standt religious groups teach and justify their beliefs because they think they are from God so they cannot be indoctrination.
If nations and people become so critical of religion that they destroy it then they are indoctrinated. to label a person or a group as retarded because it does not agree with a person ideas is indoctrination and that indoctrination gives that person a right intellectizes judgment of others or groups
Every parent on this earth puts their teachings on their children for good or bad. As time progress through education and other factors what was once right may be consider as bad. For another group to come along in time. Due to all the trials and errors of the past generations and to think that they are superior because of those errors sounds much to my ears as another form of religion.
It is humality to stand in time and then realize those errors and misstake of past generations may gives them the knowlegde to make things better. To be so agrroant to think that if a person lived in another time or country or place that they wouldn't have made those same misstake is sicking.
It was good people that went along with a bad idea that made Hilter. To think that we cannot make the same misstakes is far worst than professing faith in something. To equate a person faith to drugs is to state that any person that loved their country is on drugs. Any person that inforced the law is on drugs. Any person that believe in something greater then themselves is on drugs. To repeat a slogan is to be indoctrinated a slogan is simplistic veiw of human nature - that is how wars are started and won.
Every generation that lived on this earth thinks they are the ones and have all the answers that is human nature and each generation has hurt oppressed their felloman - religious or not that is a fact of man. To put such blind faith that man is going to solve all the problems of this world is the very thing you label indoctrination and retarded.
It is a simplistic veiw that does not accept facts or truth it is propagand and the motives behind is hate. That same hate religious people have for those who do not follow their beliefs. It is intolerant, prejudice, biggot, and it is an indoctrination of hate.
And that is the reason it will have success because that is the nature of man, but it won't be a new world for very long.
serotonin_wraith

Thanks for the reply.
You raise a number of points which I feel deserve a response.
You say that even though I have not felt a connection with God, plenty of people have felt it. Felt is the correct word. I'm not denying people believe they are in contact with God, but this doesn't prove God. This proves belief in a god.
Why do people believe? I think it because either, they want to believe. Or, they were taught to believe. People don't always want to think that this is the only life they have, so wishing for something beyond this existence is a powerful motivator to believe. Life can be hard, and there aren't always people around for us. Believing that there is a being who will always listen to us is comforting. People don't want to burn forever or die at Jesus' second coming, so fear can play a part too.
But, why is it that people believe that the god who has communicated with them, is the same god that everyone around them believes in? If you are born in America to a Christian family, you may attribute the feeling to Yahweh or Jesus. If you are born in Iran to a Muslim family, you may feel Allah is with you. Further back in time, you may have felt a spiritual connection and believed Thor was with you, or Poseidon, or Zeus, or Hercules, or Ra. There is just as much proof for those gods as the god you follow. But would you believe those gods existed and helped people?
You say that it won't go away without violence on both sides. I already showed you were wrong about this when I mentioned Europe moving away from religion.
I don't say that the people in places like Sweden and Denmark (or other European countries) are superior, just that they aren't oppressed.
You seem to think any teaching is indoctrination. It isn't. Passing on our knowledge is how humans function, and children can take that knowledge and improve upon it with new ideas. With religion, the beliefs are stuck in the past, and it becomes heresy to go against the teachings.
If I speak out against religion, it is not indoctrination. People can look at the information and do what they like with it. If I have children, I will not force them to believe there is no god. True freedom is being allowed to believe whatever you like. Unfortunately, religion has many penalties for not believing in their doctrine. 'Believe this, or burn forever' isn't freedom. It is an abusive form of control.
We don't know what we may be fighting over in the future. But the point is, we already know religion is the cause of most of the wars now, so let's think more rationally about that cause. We can worry about any other causes, if and when they happen.
I don't claim to have all the answers. What I do know is that we are the first species on this planet to reach the technological capability to destroy this planet. We need to take away the things that may cause a nuclear fallout. One thing, proven time and time again to be a cause for mass killing, is religion. It is not hateful to want to prevent this happening.
Gregor

The world would be better off. Nice discussion, the kind you have after a couple drinks and are sitting around a campfire passing a Bob Marley perfecto amongst the group while arguing over whether there is life on other planets. Fun to discuss but of course you'll never know. It will never happen. People will never give it up voluntarily and they get ugly when you try to pop the pacifier of religion out of their mouths.
cognizant dissident

Religion never killed anybody. Neither did atheism or communism. They are just beliefs. Beliefs can't kill anybody. Only people can. Oh wait a minute. There is one belief that is a very dangerous one and can lead anyone who believes it into killing anyone else. It is held by most religionists, communists and maybe even atheists (although not the ones I've personally met.) It is the belief that that anyone has the right to kill or harm other people who do not share their beliefs. Scary isn't it?
Cog
serotonin_wraith

Gregor:
Fun to discuss but of course you'll never know. It will never happen. People will never give it up voluntarily...
It is already happening in places. People are giving up their beliefs voluntarily all the time.
Cog, you're right. People do believe they have the right to kill people who don't agree with them. They believe this because their religious holy books command them to.
writetoknow

Once again your making blanket statements. I stated clearly that experience with god of God does not have to be Christian please re read my comments.
Your right it not about Christian their are many other religions that have hate and really don't care about your belief or mine for a better world. Please look at my comments.
I also stated that people without a personal spiritual experience will discredit people that have had one. What else can they do. Your beliefs that their is not a god is not superior over someone that thinks there is. You have no more proof that there is not a God. It is a personal judgment base on education that you got from someone else ideas.
You dislike the term indoctrination but you like using it against anyone that has religion I think this is the whole point of the issue. We are smart, better, and we know what best for the rest of this world so we can make harsh statements but we don't like them used against us.
Again read what indoctrination is you have termed it as the worst word in the world when in fact it is used on all levels from government to religion and in business. This is not my idea it is a fact of life.
One fact you over look as many people that move away from religion there are just as many and perhaps more that move into it. If you want to fair and you don't have an agenda want to prove there are two side to the issue the truth will be found some where in between.
Many people are moving away from organized religion as they are marriage and a number of other past tradations. But religion is not going away without violence and this violence does not have to come through war, but some of it will, It can be laws. If you are so foolish to think that the indoctrination you are advocating is not base on hate for religion then you simple are not wanting any facts. I personal see it and feel it in this thread as do many other people in real life.
The people advocating destroying religion hate it and they are indoctrinated from someone thinking. You don't like religion and you know exacty how you feel about it so there is no need to change what has been said in this tread let's not put a new face on it your feeling have been made know.
I simply stated from the start hate is not enlightment it is not new and it is not better then what you hate. And my friend it this is whole point and we just proved it by our comments in this tread. I will not change you and you will not change my thinking. There is a war going against religion and we all know it.
That war at some point will destroy religion and the end will be violent as it already has been in counties that destroy or out law religion in the past history. And most of the teaching advocated in this tread are the same teaching in part of those countries that have removed religion from their governmen there nothing new here - if your honest and open to seeing both sides of the story. And lastly that is what is scary people keep repeating the same misstakes and thinking it something new because they think their smart generation when in fact learn come first realizing that we are all humans and we will make the same misstakes if we don't learn from past generation.
serotonin_wraith

I too, stated that experience of a god didn't have to mean a Christian god. I listed many other examples.
You're right when you say I cannot prove that there is not a god. I can disprove the Christian god, but can I disprove some kind of creator who started everything off? No. However, I am not the one making the claim. It is the person who believes in a god who must back up that claim. Can you disprove the magical invisible pixie? No. But that doesn't mean that it must automatically exist, or that there is even a remote chance it exists.
You try to use the word 'indoctrination' to mean any kind of teaching. It does not apply. Children at school are not brainwashed, which is what indoctrination is. I don't mind what harsh things someone wants to say about me, I'm pointing out the flaw in using the word indoctrination as you do. I haven't termed it as the worst word in the world either.
You're right when you say people move towards religion. You are wrong when you say the number is greater than those leaving it. Look back on the statistics I gave for churchgoers in the UK. Look at how Europe is becoming less religious.
The truth is not always found inbetween two incompatible claims. If I said that I had a million dollars in the bank and you didn't believe me, would that mean I had half a million in the bank? Would it mean I had a quarter in the bank? I may not even have a bank account at all. Making a claim does not automatically make it 50% likely.
You repeat a couple of mistakes, which I had hoped I'd cleared up long ago. Perhaps you missed them. Religion HAS diminished WITHOUT violence. I do not want to indoctrinate anyone to not believe in a god. I would be no better than those who teach religion to their children at a young age. And no, I do not HATE religion. I am scared for what danger it brings, and I hate certain effects religion has brought. If people want to have religion and believe what makes them happy, I'm cool with that. Unfortunately, they cannot keep it to themselves.
There is not a war going on against religion. There is more of a discussion with religious people by those who worry where religion is leading us. Words do not kill people.
And I'm curious, if you do not believe in a particular god, where are you getting your information from that there will be a war to end religion?
cognizant dissident

You repeat a couple of mistakes, which I had hoped I'd cleared up long ago. Perhaps you missed them. Religion HAS diminished WITHOUT violence. I do not want to indoctrinate anyone to not believe in a god. I would be no better than those who teach religion to their children at a young age. And no, I do not HATE religion. I am scared for what danger it brings, and I hate certain effects religion has brought. If people want to have religion and believe what makes them happy, I'm cool with that. Unfortunately, they cannot keep it to themselves.
Good points. In Europe and in North America, religious practice has diminished greatly in the last 100 years. This has been without violence. It has been because of education, the providing of alternative viewpoints, and the freedom of people to choose for themselves. Many of the people have spoken. That is not a war against religion. That is freedom of speech and freedom of choice. That is democracy! Those are things that the major religious traditions do not have a history of supporting and have themselves warred against. That is the "danger" that serotoninwraith speaks of. The danger that any "religion" will again become the dominant power in the world and take away our freedom of choice. We see the human rights abuses in countries where it is rule by "theocracy". (Islamic fundamentalism)
Does this mean we should do away with all religions? How on earth would we accomplish that? By force? That has already been tried in the communist countries where people's freedom to believe and practice their religion was taken away by force. This was merely a turning of the tables, not true change. An exchanging of one prison for another. It led to even greater human rights abuses and brainwashing of children than was true of the religious system it was trying to replace. The world does not need to repeat that experiment again. We know how it turns out.
As I said earlier, religious belief in itself is not harmful. Nor are communist ideals. It is the enforcement of those beliefs on others that is harmful. We do not have to do away with religion. Some of it is beautiful and harmless ritual that comforts people and gives them meaning. Whether it is false comfort or is delusional is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether it is harmful or beneficial to others. In many cases, harm can be demonstrated. In those cases, I would like to see this type of harmful religious belief and practice done away with. I think that with continued education, alternative viewpoints/research, and the freedom to express them, religious error will hopefully die a natural death. There is evidence this is beginning to happen in the western world. There is still a long way to go.
However, if religious people would wage a war on education, alternative views, and the freedom to express them, then yes, we absolutely have to fight back against that. Not necessarily with physical force or with the intent of doing away with all religion but with the intent of self defense and self preservation. Right now, in the western world, it is a war of words. Let us hope it remains that way.
Cog

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

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