Musical Dishonesty - What next?

by hillary_step 82 Replies latest social entertainment

• 

  Little Drummer Boy

  Oh, I wouldn't even begin to think of a drum machine as being part of a good recording. There is always a give and take of time with human musicians that no computer can deal with properly. It is too sterile otherwise.

  An example that comes to mind is AC/DC's "Hells Bells". I smile a little bit every time I hear the beginning of the song because it goes through three or four slight time changes that I doubt they actually intended when they were recording. But that kind of natural stuff wasn't what I was talking about with the S o S drums recording. That guy just plain screws up at points.

  Anyway...

  It does seem to me that the most talented musicians - by talent here I am refering not to creativity per se but musical ability - are drawn towards playing in either jazz type bands or orchestras.

  I thank my mother that I was raised with an appreciation for so many different kinds of music. Bach, Neil Diamond, or heavy metal (the heavy metal was my doing). I can listen to about anything.
• 

  Twitch

  As an amateur/semi-pro musician and hobby recording engineer, I can't resist posting on this one,....:-)

  In a few of the songs I've recorded with various bands/people, I've used a software "pitch corrector" on the odd vocal track if only to correct the odd note or two in an otherwise good take. When tracking, I've been called a bit of taskmaster albeit in a good way as I'm of the opinion and not alone in it that the performance should be as good as possible and I've got no problem saying "let's do it again". Sometimes it's even having to say, "let's come back to it" at the possible risk of bruising someone's ego. It's a team thing and for the best possible outcome from everyone. And in the end its "thats what I'm talkin 'bout. lol. good take". None of us are professionals per se but we are pretty good at what we do and we enjoy the process. And I don't have a problem when it's my turn to do vocals; I understand and trust the opinion of others if in doubt myself. I'm a bit of a hack anyways but it's fun, lol.

  But it's not something we rely on whether recording or live. We'd rather beat the line to death almost than have to "cheat" all the time. It's about pushing past 90% for that extra "perfect" performance which we realize is near impossible but we still try nonetheless. A blessing and a curse. I smile when I see the "pros" at the top of their game live and I mean the purists. They make it look easy,....

  BTW I haven't used the Antares AutoTune plugin but currently use RBC Voice Tweaker. Same thing though it definitely has sonic artifacts when used in "auto" mode which I stay away from. Typically, I capture the vocal line in question on a pitch vs time graph and just correct the note that is off. Once again, it's not something we rely on to mask our crappy performances when tracking but if the rest of the take is good, I don't mind using it. I will punch in to fix a bad line to start but if it's a well "bundled" phrase, I'll use RBC.

  As for drummers dropping the beat/going off tempo, well, don't get me started,....;-) I may not be Jaco, but I ride the train well, lmao.

  Drum machines are great to practise with (being a bass player) but too "sterile" for recording as mentioned. My Roland R5 does have the "Human Feel" algorithm where it can introduce variances in pitch, tempo and nuances to the playback but I don't use it. Seems perverse in a sense,......lmao.
• 

  Little Drummer Boy

  Open Mind

  I've played in a couple "garage bands" (or should I say "garbage bands") and never had a drummer who could hold a beat. The keyboard player and/or bass player would always have to try keeping him to a somewhat uniform tempo.

  Then I was talking to my son's music teacher the other day and he said that it's very common, especially among amateurs, for drummers to have a lousy sense of tempo. What's your take?

  Open Mind

  Every instrument has some special fundamental physical property that is unique to it. For instance, if you want to play the guitar, your fingers (fret hand) have to be able to actually fit on the individual strings without damping others. Every newbie on a guitar is going to screw that up, but some players will never, now matter how hard they try or practice, be able to properly press the strings. It is just not physically possible for them to do so.

  Same with drums. I can sit down for 5 minutes with anybody at a drum kit, listen to them, and tell you if they have potential. I don't mean potential to be a prodigy or the next Neil Peart. I mean potential, that if they practice enough, they will be at least OK and can keep a proper beat. I completey disagree with the music teacher (I'll lay $10 the person isn't a drummer primarily). Tempo isn't taught to a true drummer. You feel it. Always. I feel the rythms of everything. If an amateur (excluding the very young) can't feel a basic 4/4, they need to not be a drummer. I have seen countless kids be allowed to be in percussion in school when they should have been encouraged to try a different instrument. I know that sounds harsh, but it has been my experience. Some people can't adequatly play any instrument. That's OK. We're all different.

  As to your experiences with garage band drummers, I've been there, done that, got the T shirt. A percussionist behind a drum kit - a drummer - in that circumstance has one and only one primary duty: keep time. Unlike in an orchestra, there is no conductor. It is the drummers duty to keep it all going. If the drummer can't do it (because of lack of talent, trying to be too complicated with the part played, or too much beer), then that person needd to not be in the band. They can roadie or something.

  Do this..the next time you see a noticibly good (or bad) drummer play. This is one of the tell-tale signs. Watch their hi-hat hand. If they are right handed, that will be their right hand. Watch them playing 1/8 notes on the hats. You will always, always see a good drummer as fluid on the hats. The stick will caress the cymbal. It will be like watching silky waves. A bad drummer will be like watching a robot as they "chunk, chunk, chunk" away trying to beat the cymbal into submission. It is very hard to describe, but if you look for it and if you are exposed to a drummer who is good and one who is really, really bad, and can compare, you will know right away what I'm talking about.
• 

  Twitch

  Tempo isn't taught to a true drummer. You feel it. Always.

  True. You either have tempo or you don't. Same with pitch in singing or phrasing in guitar.

  And I agree with the point of being fluid in terms of style. Some look as though they're trying. Those that are naturals don't; they just flow with it. Use the Force.
• 

  hillary_step

  DrummerBoy & Twitch,

  Have not much to add to both your interesting posts.

  I have found that many drummers 'overdrum' and loose the bass, often due to an inflated ego. Once this happens the only people who would be impressed by the results are drunks. Many drummers do not read, and this imho is one reason why cohesion is often lost so easily in an amateur drummer. If any player needs to be disciplined and to learn that what you do not say is often more important than what you do say, it is the drummer. A drummer with an inflated ego is a common but dangerous thing.

  The test of the true worth of a drummer comes when he plays, not with his regular band, but does a session with another band. His failings become apparent very rapidly. Jazz drummers are used to playing and jamming with numerous players, and that is why imho a mid-grade jazz drummer often outclasses the best of rock drummers.

  That having been said, some make the bridge between rock and jazz look very easy. Take a listen to John Marshall, Tony Oxley, Bryan Spring, Pip Pyle, Dennis Elliot, etc. These drummers are all consumate professionals with a staggering repetoire, all learned by spreading their talents far and wide.

  HS
• 

  tijkmo

  i'm in two minds on the use of auto tune...personally i seem to manage recording vocals ok but fall flat (pun intended) when singing live.

  what i do think is superfluous is the software that allows you to sing like someone else - someone famous - i mean what is the point.

  on the drumming front even if its not a drum machine most drums are recorded now with a click and then when mistakes are made then they are 'cut and pasted' with the likes of protools etc.

  ultimately i think that whatever tools are used to produce good music then a good song will always be a good song and i like a good song.

  and lets face it this is the entertainment industry and it isn't that important..much scarier to think that deficiencies in ability in other fields like construction, surgery, etc would be truly devastating.

  with regard to the beatles i was never a fan although i like a bunch of stuff - fave being abbey road, which to my mind is more of a concept album than sergeant pepper. recently i saw a programme where they got modern bands to re-record sergeant pepper using all the old technology. the modern bands struggled to emulate the beatles which gave me more respect although i still don't much like the songs..and the modern bands were not that good either - kaiser cheifs, magic numbers, sterophonics blah blah.

  and paul simon wrote some brilliant songs but i have to say america just plain sucks
• 

  Spectre

  All this machinery making modern music can still be open hearted, not so coldly charted its really just a question of your honesty (yeah, your honesty).

  Rush
• 

  OUTLAW

  hillary_step..Good morning Bud!..Auto tune..Never heard of it till just now.....I like tools,but I am not going to a concert to hear a machine correct the musicians..I would think it would have its place though.Someone in training who needs to be shown the correct way.....I remember when calculators first came out.I heard no end of complaints from teachers,on how the calculator would ruin a students chances on learning to do math..Now everyone has one..And..People can still do math without one..LOL!!.....I guarantee you one thing my friend.You will get down on your knees and thank God for Auto Tune,if it`s being used at a local Pub on Kareokee Night!..LOL!!...OUTLAW
• 

  purplesofa

  I am sad to hear this I have been going to more live concerts to support musicians and bands and plus I really, really enjoy live music. I get alot of cds that are recorded live. Don't get me wrong I love cd's that are "perfect" It does not have to be perfect to be good. I like to be open to new musicians, but in many ways I have lost respect for the creativity that I have seen over the past few years. I like to go back to the old music. I am always searching for artists now that are not the mainstream. The ones that are really musicians and not after the big bucks. Just because McDonalds sells the most Hamburgers does not mean they are the best. Same with music.........people will know the difference. Soon society's quest for everything to be perfect will be dull and boring and we will cherish imperfections, crave realness again. purps
• 

  hillary_step

  tijkmo,

  I agree with much of what you say with notable exceptions.

  i'm in two minds on the use of auto tune...personally i seem to manage recording vocals ok but fall flat (pun intended) when singing live.

  Then you need to practice more before you sing live. If you are note perfect in one venue and not the other, why not find out why, rather than default to machinery to absolve the deficiency? I speak here in general terms as I am sure many musicians find themselves in your situation.

  what i do think is superfluous is the software that allows you to sing like someone else - someone famous - i mean what is the point.

  Well said.

  on the drumming front even if its not a drum machine most drums are recorded now with a click and then when mistakes are made then they are 'cut and pasted' with the likes of protools etc.

  That may be so and needed in the world of popular rock music, where musicianship and musicality is patchy and inhabited by too many amateurs, to say the least, but few Jazz drummers would allow such interference.

  ultimately i think that whatever tools are used to produce good music then a good song will always be a good song and i like a good song.

  This issue is not with lyric or melody, it is with performance.

  and lets face it this is the entertainment industry and it isn't that important..much scarier to think that deficiencies in ability in other fields like construction, surgery, etc would be truly devastating.

  Now, I am very suprised to read this comment from you as a musician and perhaps it is symptomatic of actually what is wrong with the entertainment industry. Music as an art is serious business, and in the long run as serious as any other industry or discipline, perhaps even more so. Music outlives buildings and cancers. It moulds hearts and thinking. It affects society in massive ways. Think of the liberating values of the Blues and Jazz, Goya and Fra Angelico for example. The only nation that I have travelled to that seems to understand this is France, who seem to have a respect for the poets, artists and musicians that competes with the other disciplines that you mentioned.

  with regard to the beatles i was never a fan although i like a bunch of stuff - fave being abbey road, which to my mind is more of a concept album than sergeant pepper. recently i saw a programme where they got modern bands to re-record sergeant pepper using all the old technology. the modern bands struggled to emulate the beatles which gave me more respect although i still don't much like the songs..and the modern bands were not that good either - kaiser cheifs, magic numbers, sterophonics blah blah.

  I think many modern bands do not know the difference between referencing and mimicking other players music.

  and paul simon wrote some brilliant songs but i have to say america just plain sucks

  lol...Well, I have never been a Simon fan, I find many of his lyirics lightweight, a sort of Starbucks coffee poet. What I suggested about "America" is that it is definitive. It "is" America of the late 60's and the lyrics of travel, and hopes tinged with regret, spoke to a lot of young Americans at the time. It was 'American Pie' lite, but it worked in all dimensions.

  What do you mean by sucks by the way....lol

  HS