NAME JUST ONE thing....ONE THING...revealed by God....

by Terry 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • eclipse
    eclipse
    I really like discussions of the original source of anthropogenic fire. It seems bizarre to imagine anyone sitting and rubbing sticks together long enough to discover that fire was the result.

    AuldSoul, Remember the movie, Ice Age? I think that fire was probably accidently discovered by another means, rocky flint, striking it, and seeing sparks. Seems logical to me that this could be one way they discovered fire.

    Fire discovery from rubbing sticks does not make any sense if they had no idea what would occur. They had to have known that rubbing sticks together would create heat / fire. So obviously, this technique only evolved after fire was already discovered.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Eclipse,

    I really enjoy discussions about the origin of anthropogenic fire. Thanks.

    Striking flint does not produce sparks except with certain kinds of metal bearing lode. That could have been discovered by accident. However, the leap from that to rubbing sticks together is a very long leap. It requires comprehension that the act of striking stones together creates friction.

    This means, according to your "accidental discovery" hypothesis, that some superb genius in humanity's distant past got intuitively beyond the pretty sparks and understood the underlying physical principle: (A) friction creates heat, (B) enough heat produces fire, therefore (C) enough friction produces fire.

    Then someone got the bright idea that this nifty parlor trick had some practical application (i.e. it had some technological benefit for the species) like scaring/herding game or cooking food, and that the skill should be handed down to the next generation.

    Next, this knowledge would have to have been retained through quite a few potential special extermination periods.

    Fire is heat that burns things. It often begins accidentally from lightning strikes in dry brush. We call it "a conversion of potential energy into the form of heat". Our distant ancestors didn't understand it in those terms but "knew" what it was, anyway. Knowing what fire is does not seem to be odd knowledge among the animal kingdom. Lots of animals have instinctive responses to fire. No animals save humans use and manipulate the properties of fire for anything.

    If I remember my history correctly, the "creating sparks" method of anthropogenic fire was a late arrival compared to the "rubbing sticks" method. I believe the "fire from concentrating sunlight through a convex refractive medium" was much later still.

    Were you genuinely referencing Ice Age as a source of some kind? (just kidding)

    eclipse: They had to have known that rubbing sticks together would create heat / fire.

    Exactly my argument. How did they know this? Trial and error? Something like a group of extremely bored prehistoric men and/or women playing a game called "Ook eh-eh ookie ahg-aghh Uh-ghug"? (rough translation: "Rubbingsticks make hot dancy Light")

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    homo sapien sapien and erectus are not stupid brutes. Neither was homo neantertaleniss.

    Rub your hands together... what do you feel? Move your hands next to a fire that was caused by lightening strike... what do you feel?

    It is not a really large leap, nor does it take a genius to start wondering: "if i rub my hands together long enough would they burst into 'dancy flamey things'. I really dont want to burn my hands up, but I know wood can burn... hmmm, I shall try to rub sticks together and see if that works"

    They had hundreds of thousands of years to think about things like this.

  • eclipse
    eclipse

    Lol, AuldSoul,

    I guess I was just musing in a lighthearted way about that topic.

    I have no idea when stick rubbing was discovered to create fire.

    I also agree with IP_SEC in that our ancestors were not stupid neanderthals with small brains.

    Like with all scientific discoveries, some come about by leaps in logical thought, or by accident.

    How stick-rubbing came about, I have no clue.

    If flint is not a plausible explanation, then I am not educated enough about this subject to conjecture another hypothesis.

    I merely gave one in a non serious manner that made sense to me.

    and yes, I was joking about the Ice Age reference.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Matt,

    I know the assumption is accidental/intuitive discovery. I think this position completely ignores the innate dread of fire evidenced throughout the animal kingdom. Before trying to intentionally bring this dreaded thing into being, a compelling reason had to exist. Then trial and error might have occurred and generational transmission of the knowledge might have been likely. The reason must have preceded the discovery, or at least must have preceded the teaching of the skill to successive generations.

    Thoughts?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    The reason must have preceded the discovery, or at least must have preceded the teaching of the skill to successive generations.

    Yes, I have no problem with that. And please excuse the fact that I've not read this whole thread. I was just commenting on your last comment. So here is my response, again forgive my ignorace of how this thread has progressed up to now. I just dont feel like reading 8 pages of anything right now.

    Reason is not a magical, mystical quality. Human reason and intel are unique so far as we know but, WE are even now building computers and software that can reason on a sub-human level. I have no reason to believe that WE will not construct human and super human artifical intelligence. Replace WE with natural selection and hundreds of thousands of years you have human reason and intel.

    So ya human (even sub human as some animals can use tools) reason, must have preceded the ability to create and use any tool and pass on the knowledge to ascendant generations.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    The reason is the critical "missing link" in the discussion because we know this skill couldn't have gradually developed over many generations. Within one lifespan a reason had to have been cause to discover and teach and an anthropogenic method of producing usable, controllable fire had to be discovered.

    Not "hundreds of thousands of years" ... one lifespan. The survival import of the advancement had to be recognized as important enough to overcome the societal instinctive dread of fire and spread throughout near-human society within a few lifespans.

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    critical "missing link"

    No, I believe what you are missing is critical mass of intelligence (which did take millions/billions of years) to produce an animal capable of "quantum jumps" past his anscestors.

    the advancement had to be recognized as important enough to overcome the societal instinctive dread of fire and spread throughout near-human society within a few lifespans.

    No problem there either. It is a funny thing about progress that VERY often the same advancement is made on opposite sides of the globe with no knowledge of the research of either party. Why? How? How did the Chinese and Europeans both begin using horses without knowledge of each other?

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    I look around at the trees,the flowers, babies,a waterfall.birds, etc: & know some one or being! had to have created them.
    Then I read in the Bible "Only the fool has said there is no GOD"( Creator)
    Please Terry!! if your such an expert tell this old woman when you can make me any one of the things I mentioned.
    Yes I understand fully why you dont believe !!! with all the suffering that is going on ( especially those minors that are trapped at this time) ..... If you can show ME that you can create ----I will follow you

    I KNOW you can make a baby!!!! but that is what God said. PAIN will be with the birth.... TRUE! I had 5

    & HE gave you the "arrow to shoot those kids" Thank God for a wonderful design

  • Terry
    Terry
    eclipse: They had to have known that rubbing sticks together would create heat / fire.

    Exactly my argument. How did they know this? Trial and error? Something like a group of extremely bored prehistoric men and/or women playing a game called "Ook eh-eh ookie ahg-aghh Uh-ghug"? (rough translation: "Rubbingsticks make hot dancy Light")

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

    If there is one thing for certain, fire was NOT discovered by rubbing sticks together.

    After watching about 10 seasons of the reality TV show SURVIVOR! and watching people try and try and try to make fire without fling (and fail utterly) this has to be the worst and least likely method available.

    On the other hand, as soon as the Survivors win a flint in competition the roaring blaze ensues immediately.

    Incidentally, fire is a chemical reaction.

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