by Terry 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi mouthy,
With utmost respect for your age, I must answer.
Yes I understand fully why you dont believe !!! with all the suffering that is going on ( especially those minors that are trapped at this time)
This has nothing to do with my disbelif. The world is a wonderful, wonderous place that I love. I love living here and now. It is a great adventure. Yes, suffering happens, but it is part of the human experience. I dont blame god for suffering. I embrace it and learn from it.
Thanks for your reply IP....The minors being trapped,is really bothering me. At my age I have seen so much suffering ( I lived through the 2nd World War (The BLITZ )in England.... Lost a child to it). Saw so much, but I guess BECAUSE of my old age, I cant sleep thinking of those minors trapped below.
I was not refering to you when I posted it was to Terry but I guess I will have to go back & read it all .
Fools also rush in where angels fear to tread> ME!!!!
I look around at the trees,the flowers, babies,a waterfall.birds, etc: & know some one or being! had to have created them.
Then I read in the Bible "Only the fool has said there is no GOD"( Creator)
Please Terry!! if your such an expert tell this old woman when you can make me any one of the things I mentioned.
Yes I understand fully why you dont believe !!! with all the suffering that is going on ( especially those minors that are trapped at this time) ..... If you can show ME that you can create ----I will follow you
Okay, let me try to explain.
From the time you were a very young, small and impressionable child you have
1.Constantly heard that everything has been "made" by God.
2.Observed that art is always "made" by somebody; an artist
3.Have never observed any process which takes a length of time beyond your own lifetime
4.Have emotional values placed on "God" "Father" "creator" and other religious concepts.
Are you with me so far? Okay, let's proceed.
Having been constantly informed by sources we trust that everything beautiful, wonderful, amazing and awe-inspiring is the result of a Heavenly Being with superpowers who made it all JUST FOR US is enormously appealing.
Okay?
Read on...
What could ever compete with this idea? What could compete with a concept so personal and emotionally satisfying that we'd even give it serious consideration?
Do we have...
1.People we know and trust telling us contrary information which depersonalizes the world around us?
2.Have first-hand knowledge or observation of long term processes which eventuate complex and wonderful things?
3.Ever witness beautiful art simply occur without agency?
4.Any emotional attachments to mere process without personality behind it?
Stop! The answer is No, No, No and No! Of course we don't.
The only time most people hear an argument against God and creation it comes from some wild, abrasive, arrogant know-it-all that we'd never invite over to play Parcheesi, let alone teach us how the world was made!
We are not neutral. We are not objective. We have been conditioned and programmed all of our life to filter out any ideas which contradict the warm, fuzzy, designer God, father-in-the-sky who made it for us story.
Will you agree that this is the case? We are not an impartial jury?
Further, how many people are reared by parents, school and society to be rational rather than objective?
Is Logic and reasoning taught in Kindergarten or grade school? Or, is everything dumbed down and made a cartoon or a storybook fantasy so that naive little minds can accept things easily?
You are an honest thinker, Mouthy. I think you see where I am going.
I USE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
I have the same programming as you have.
I'm 60 years old!
Do you think I want to be on the outside looking in at this stage of life?
When do people normally get really serious about God? It is in the last years of their life!
If I could accept this fairytale like almost everybody around me I WOULD so I wouldn't be an oddball.
Do you think I want my daughters at school ostracized because they don't believe what the other kids believe?
Do you think I want the school nurse praying over them or giving them a crucifix and telling them they are spiritually sick?
HELL NO!
Did you know my eleven year old daughter was recently told by her best friend that SHE CANNOT SLEEPOVER anymore because she (my daughter) is a bad influence religiously!!!
This churns my insides like you'd never believe!!
I'D LOVE TO SWALLOW THIS LOAD OF CRAP and join the pod people and have a dumb smile on my face and teach it to my kids. But, it is a lie. It is an insidious, pathetic, shallow, moronic fairy tale. I cannot in good conscience teach it to my children.
Remember, I've lived by my conscience all my life. When I was convinced as a JW that I should go to prison, I went to prison. I never took the easy way out.
When I finally realized that I had been deceived and misinformed about one thing--I began to consider OTHER things as well.
I thought evolution was silly my whole life. Why? Because I only read the apologists strawman version of what evolution is!
You have to read BOTH sides of an issue to be properly informed.
That is my answer, Mouthy. I think it is an honest and thought-provoking (I hope) answer for you.
Please Terry!! if your such an expert tell this old woman when you can make me any one of the things I mentioned.
Curious thinkers have gathered information over many years and pieced together HOW things have come to be. The honest explorers of the mysteries of life have plotted the course. It was a long haul and there were many obstacles. Men of faith blocked the way, certainly. But, men of faith (like Darwin) led the way, too.
When I look at a cloud and it appears to be the profile of Abraham Lincoln I'm astonished! Who sculpted this cloud to resemble the 16th president? Why, I did! My mind is hard-wired to make "sense" of things according to certain templates already present in my cognitive responses.
I've used the following analogy before. I think it is a good one. It is meant to demonstrate how EASILY human thinking projects and personalizes even the most inert and dormant chunk into a living sentience.
Give a young girl a doll.
The doll is not alive; truly it is nothing more than plastic.
What will the young child begin to do with this non-living, blank simulacrum?
In no time at all, the young girl will dress the doll, brush its hair, talk to it, name it, have tea parties with it and actually become friends!
You know this is true.
Children LOVE their dolly or teddy bear like they love a living creature that can give back love!!
Stop and think about this phenomenal human characteristic for a minute, will you?!
A child transforms a mere hunk of plastic into a loved one with personality and imbues it with the ability to LOVE THEM IN RETURN!
Mouthy, I assert to you that you have turned nature into your own Woobie!
Mouthy, I assert to you that you have turned nature into your own Woobie!
But I have to admit. I am enjoying my woobie( what ever that is) I see your a creator of a new word bravo !!!!!!clever boy!!!!
But you have to admit the kids that love their toys, & talk to them etc: & LOVE them ,,,,can see them, but me on the other hand has Faith !!!! but my OBJECT? ( GOD) CANT BE SEEN ( Hebrews 11:1)
But I have put my trust in an UNSEEN GOD.... But for the years when I didnt believe in a GOD,Boy !!
I got into a lot of problems ,then I followed a MAN>. Russell for 25 years.- thought I was GODS gift to mankind.( pretty near perfect....LOL.
Then I found out man wasnt perfect & dont know all the answers (( like me)
So now I speak to Jesus,,,,Yes I read about HIM in scripture... I dont believe all written in scripture > why? Written by MEN!!!! But when my Doctor told me if I would let him cut my stomach open it would stop the excruiting pain I had , I let him>It did ! So I threw in the towel & said" Jesus Christ if your really there - come into my life & direct it. guide me, cos I aint doing very well at this living game."Well I am now 80 but since I was 59 ... I am doing better than I have all my life. But I dont start the day without speaking to Jesus ....O.K. NOW you can laugh......
Terry: If there is one thing for certain, fire was NOT discovered by rubbing sticks together.
Relatives of homo sapiens "discovered" fire much the same way gorillas, chimpanzees, deer, squirrels, owls, ants, bees, and every other kind of land-dwelling creature discovers fire. One starts and destroys habitats, destroys specimen, and destroys product. In the wild, those species of the animal kingdom which are not afraid of fire do not often survive fire. Instinctively, fire is feared and avoided by mammalian species in particular.
Do you agree?
Again, before trying to find a way to bring this dreaded thing into existence intentionally a need must be present which (a) requires the technology to a sufficient degree that natural instinct to survive is overwhelming innate dread of fire, and (b) can be met quickly enough to have been discovered within one life span. The solution to the need must have been (a) discovered within a single life span, (b) have been simple to employ, and (c) can have been easily communicated to uninterrupted successive generations prior to the advent of written communication.
The need for technology precedes the use of technology—more especially in prehistoric environments than today. There simply wasn't time in a day for idle pursuits.
To use your analogy of Survivor, Terry, ALL the people placed in those more primitive circumstances (still ultra-modern by prehistoric standards) already know the survival value of fire and they are often still unwilling to invest the required efforts or are unable to produce fire. Others, after producing fire, fail to keep the fire going through inattention or unfavorable weather conditions. At home, we watch thinking how stupid they are for not giving due attention to such a vital element of wilderness survival. They are exhausted from the other demands of survival, caring for provision of food, clothing, and shelter. They are undernourished and tired, they make mistakes. They know the value of fire and sometimes still can't keep one maintained once started.
Original anthropogenic fire requires the value being either intuited from a position of complete ignorance of the advantages of fire or necessitated by immediate unfavorable conditions that required the production of fire. That is, unless we imagine primitive societies had time to devise parlor tricks for entertainment purposes. Watching Survivor, I find that extremely difficult to envision.
I think original anthropogenic fire is a very interesting discussion because of the single life-span constraint implicit in the nature of the technology itself. It couldn't possibly have developed gradually over even two hundred years, much less hundreds of thousands of years. We are talking a period in history when the average life spans were much shorter than today. The needs leading to its introduction and ubiquitous application would have to have been much too immediate to allow for a hundred generations of "fire scientists" dedicated to the pursuit of acquiring human generated fire.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Terry: Men of [science] blocked the way, certainly.
This would be true in the case of Nikola Tesla, certainly—the scientific "papacy's" version of what happened with Galileo Galilei. Men of science are no more noble or prone to admit fundamental error in their basic assumptions, in my experience, than anyone else. Human pride blocks the way to progress. It also leads the way to progress. Odd, isn't it?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
auldsoul
Before trying to intentionally bring this dreaded thing into being, a compelling reason had to exist.
haven't read everyone's posts so forgive me if this has been mentioned.
The compelling could have been that fire transforms.
IP_SEC: No problem there either. It is a funny thing about progress that VERY often the same advancement is made on opposite sides of the globe with no knowledge of the research of either party. Why? How? How did the Chinese and Europeans both begin using horses without knowledge of each other?
It isn't my problem to demonstrate the how, IP_SEC. I am not the one making the extraordinary claim that prior to written communication such advances were commonplace or likely to arise spontaneously in many places without communication between groups. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
IP_SEC: No, I believe what you are missing is critical mass of intelligence (which did take millions/billions of years) to produce an animal capable of "quantum jumps" past his anscestors.
"Critical mass of intelligence" does not equate to "critical mass of knowledge." Technology is not simply a function of intellect. Aboriginal tribes of Australia are no less intelligent than other specimen of homo sapiens, but they lacked a lot of the knowledge acquired long prior to their discovery by many other peoples around the globe.
I note that you mention the "quantum jumps" past ancestors. Couple this with disconnected civilizations arriving at technologies nearly simultaneously and a curious combination of extraordinary claims emerges. A simple explanation exists, by application of Occam's Razor, although it is one not readily embraced by many of a scientific bent.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
auldsoul
re your rubbing sticks together to produce fire point
Striking/rubbing sticks together also produces noise and then creating fire could accidently have been discovered via that route?
