Christians - Convert me! I'm Pagan!

by Sirona 90 Replies latest jw friends

Double Edge

My heart breaks every time I enter the foyer. I've seen sights that would make you cry - from children to the worst deformities imaginable in adults. I ask myself how a loving God could permit such things to go on. My faith in God has been utterly shattered.
You're a good man Ian, with a good heart. Who among us hasn't asked similar questions regarding God - me included. I don't know all the answers to life's questions, not by a longshot; but the older I get, what I do understand is that our journey on this earth is so miniscule when compared to what lies ahead. The 'order' of the earth is in place. The wonderfulness of it seems to always be overshadowed by the 'ugliness' and downright cruelty of some of the conditions here. Life's a struggle, not matter who you are, even in trying find a connection to the Devine and understanding "purpose". When I was a child, my mother and father took me to a hospital where I met some doctors (several times). One time, a doctor took my hand, we walked into and elevator (thinking my parents were behind me), I turned around facing the front and there I saw both my parents with tears in their eyes standing outside the elevator as the doors closed (things were handle vastly different 50 years ago). Long story short .... how could my parent's allow this to happen? Several innovative surgeries later, I was just like any kid. My parents, though pained, looked down the years to my future and made the right choice, even though I was left momentarialy screaming, not understanding. Today, I'm the one with tears and thankfulness for what they did.
If you want to be 'disappointed' in God, that's understandable, but don't give up faith .... we're all a work in progress.
peace...
D.E.
LittleToe

Ian:
I ask myself how a loving God could permit such things to go on. My faith in God has been utterly shattered.
That is the question that has hounded mankind for as long as he's been around, hence so many belief systems. Regardless of what we believe I suspect we all hope there's something better the other side of the veil...
Edited to add: That having been said, I would hope that we would all do as much as we can to make life this side of the veil as good as it possibly can be for current and future generations!
Deputy Dog

Sirona
I'd still love to hear your response.

Sunspot, Years ago when I hadn't yet become pagan, I attended a Christian church frequented by Born Again Christians. I learned the idea of asking Jesus, from the heart....and being open....and being repentant for all I'd done wrong. I tried it. Nothing happened. I tried it again. Nothing happened. Sirona

What do you mean "Nothing happened"? Jesus died on a cross so you could have eternal life. What else did you expect? Was that not enough?
Deputy Dog

LT
Good to see you back on the board!
LT, of the "unorthodox five-point Calvinist" class.
Are you sure you don't mean unorthodox Arminian
Mouthy and I missed you in PA at the convention!
Dansk

D. E.and Ross:
Thank you so much for your cordial replies. Ross and I have good discussions on faith whenever he comes to visit.
Before I was a JW I had believed in Buddhism for many years. After I exited the JWs I joined an Ancient Bible History group, of which I'm still a member, read all I could about the Bible and decided Buddhism was best for me after all. I guess that's what it all boils down to - we find a belief system that suits us. I'm happy being 'Buddhist' because it answers my questions better than anything else I have found and one doesn't have to believe in a Creator. However, I do not belong to any one school of Buddhism because I find they can be as dogmatic as any Christian denomination. I cannot speak for paganism as I don't know much about it.
When I see the sorry sights I see at the hospital - and I'm pleased everything went well for you, D.E. - I can explain them away better through the teaching of karma. There's still much I don't understand, of course, but knowing there is no Creator makes suffering more understandable. We suffer because we ourselves have caused it - be it in this life or somewhere in a past life.
The hardest thing that I have ever encountered was when I came close to death. I was genuinely afraid, not of death itself, which I would have welcomed at the time because I was really suffering, but in the manner in which I felt I might die. Obviously, it would be wonderful to be strong at such a time and, indeed, some people are. Many of these, but not all, have a faith in God. Therefore, I understand why a belief in a Creator is so important to so many people. It genuinely can bring comfort at much needed times.
I do believe there is more to life than we know or believe. I strongly believe we are one with each other and with the universe - but I cannot prove it. One thing always runs through my mind. Buddhists believe all things are impermanent, which they are. Therefore, death, too, must be impermanent.
Love,
Ian
snowbird

I do believe there is more to life than we know or believe. I strongly believe we are one with each other and with the universe - but I cannot prove it. One thing always runs through my mind. Buddhists believe all things are impermanent, which they are. Therefore, death, too, must be impermanent.
I believe likewise. That's why the Bible appeals to me. Oh, I've read other books that attempt to answer that ancient question of why things are the way they are. I have to admit that some do a pretty dang job of it. But, as Sunspot mentioned, none of the other gods or goddesses have ever indicated that they would be willing to give up their life for us. Quite the opposite in most cases.
No, reading and believing the Bible won't answer all our questions. The Bible never states that it will; however, it gives us enough to go on until that awesome Day when all will be revealed. I'm willing to wait.
Just my tuppence.
Sylvia
XJW4EVR

Sirona,

Like Little Toe, I too am hardly around here, and on the days I do drop by, I seldom find anything that intrigues me enough to comment on. Your thread did intrigue me as did the attempts to convince you. I am not going to convince you that Christianity is true because, based on your comments, you are not interested in Christianity being true. I could be wrong but, it appears to me that you are simply engaging in some sort of exercise in which you put others down for not respecting your beliefs. I for one respect your beliefs. I don't agree with them, and in fact I think that they are wrong, but they are your beliefs, and you are entitled to them. An earlier poster said that many ex-JWs go to paganism in an attempt to move as far away from Dubism as possible. I did that, by abandoning all belief in God.

I don't know what it will take to "convince" you. I know what convinced me, and that was the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. In particular two books were instrumental in "convincing" me. One is Simon Greenleaf's An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists. The other is Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict. Simon Greenleaf's was more convincing to me than anything else because he attempts to determine if the four gospels could stand up in a court of law.

When I began looking into Christianity, I was more interested in finding out what it was really all about with out the aid of the watchtower filter. I had no desire to become a Christian. God, however, had different plans. This is what I think Deputy Dog meant be God choosing you. I am not going to get into a thread on Calvinism vs. Arminianism at this time, mainly because it is not the point of this thread. But I will say that about half the Christian world believes that God elects humanity, and selects the time when He reveals Himself to them. He did this with Paul, who murdered Christians. However, once God revealed Himself to Paul, Paul became the leading voice in forming Christian doctrine. Whether or not it is "fair" that God does this is not the correct question to ask. The correct question to ask is why does God chose any at all?

I realize that this is not going to "convince" you. Nothing I or any other Christian may write on this thread will "convince" you. However, what I will do is pray that God open your heart, as He did with Lydia in Phillipi (funny the first European convert to Christianity was a woman, and I thought Paul was supposed to hate women). You see, only until God does this will you be able to see past man's wisdom and into God's foolishness. I hope that I am wrong about your motives. If I am then I apologize in advance.

I bid you peace.
diamondblue1974

Before I answer this point can I just clarify that you are making a contrast (as highlighted)?
If you are contrasting reverential kneeling against being humiliated then I agree. Not all kneeling is done out of being abased by another. In the example that I refer to it is a spontaneous reaction to being in the presence of someone/thing awesome.
Yes I was making a contrast between the two, I think that much was clear without the need for you to condescend matey.
I disagree. It is a common complaint and altogether very human. Every group tends to prefer their own deity, be it Pan, Ishtar, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu or George Dubya.
Yes but lets face it, according to most branches of Christianity if I dont accept Jesus as my saviour, I will be bird food wont I? - so my point still stands, it goes further than just human preference and jumps headlong into intolerance.
Of course not. What do you expect? You work in legal!
LOL touche Ross, I knew you would get me back for those comments about 'working in change management' and 'working in NHS' being oximorons, but joking aside, the point I made is valid.
God chose millenia back and He bides his time and He makes the change in the individual. Its not as if the individual is passive in the matter but neither do they actively "convert" themselves.
This could lead right into another discussion about predestination which really does deserve its own thread. So in your view is everyone saved? Or are some saved and some not?
Gary
LittleToe

Gary:You may have noted by now that I still have no time for the idea of attempting to "convert" folks. I'm enjoying the discussion immensely
Yes I was making a contrast between the two, I think that much was clear without the need for you to condescend matey.
You know me better than that. My query was genuine. I wanted to be crystal clear that I wasn't misunderstanding you, before I went off on one
Yes but lets face it, according to most branches of Christianity if I dont accept Jesus as my saviour, I will be bird food wont I?
More like flame-bait, as the bird-fodder idea is very WTS, but I catch your drift. This isn't a unique position, however. Many religions have a corresponding "nasty-place", especially for the genuinely wicked. I have to confess to finding the concept attractive in the case of individuals like Hitler or fully mentally competant but totally sadistic paedophiles. But I guess that's another subject from the idea of arriving there due to not discerning God's unique path from the vague evidence on hand.
What would your view be regarding the ultimate end of such individuals (Hitler, et al)?
This could lead right into another discussion about predestination which really does deserve its own thread. So in your view is everyone saved? Or are some saved and some not?
DeputyDog and I would be of the opinion that the most consistent interpretation of the Bible would lead us to the doctrine of predestination. We do differ, however, on the subject of double-predestination. He believes that God actively chooses some to life and some to death. I prefer to give the Big-Guy the benefit of the doubt and suggest that He actively chooses His family and what's left is left. It might seem a moot distinction, but its mine, so there
To answer your question, I find it difficult to believe that everyone is saved and would again cite Hitler as an example that on the face of it deserves an ignominious end beyond the quick bullet that he imposed on himself. That having been said, I can totally understand why the concept of Limbo is preferable to some. Its extra-biblical but a philosophically softer approach.
Did you read the CS Lewis quotations that I'm so fond of?
AwSnap

bttt

Christians - Convert me! I'm Pagan!

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