by Deputy Dog 119 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
quietlyleaving
would the God of creation still be God to you if he didn't destroy all the wicked earthly people, bearing in mind that we all die anyway. Would he seem less powerful or more powerful?
If God condemned every wicked person to hell, that is where I would be. But, the bible teaches that He saves some to His glory
You still won't tell me how God knows the future. Who determines the future? God or man?
you moved the goalposts! As I said, He knows the future because he can see it all.
As for who determines it, I'd say both - otherwise man has no free will. I think the only part God determines - or predestines, is His plan of salvation - which He is able to weave into history. (Do you see what I'm saying? For example, the Israelites would still have gone to Egypt and become slaves, even if they hadn't been part of God's plan for salvation).
Please keep in mind you are not debating me, but God's word!
I'm sure He can handle it lol!
People are condemned because they are sinners.
In that case God makes people sin? What's the definition of sin? Isn't it anything which offends God, which goes against His will? If doing His will means sinning then is that sin really a sin?!
To answer simply, because He tells us to.
I'm going to take the atheist tack on this and say in the Bible, His word, He tells us to do lots of things, but we don't!
Tell that to God
I already did. He says it's ok to feel that way if I don't understand
emo
As for who determines it, I'd say both - otherwise man has no free will.
Have you ever read The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther - It's good stuff! If you say "both" I guess your God is not sovereign, he needs to see what man does before he acts.
People are condemned because they are sinners.In that case God makes people sin?
God doesn't have to force (make) people to sin, they are more than willing on their own. An important thing to remember is that people sin because they're sinners not the other way around.
What's the definition of sin? Isn't it anything which offends God, which goes against His will?
Sin is simply missing the mark. Falling short of God's Glory.
To answer simply, because He tells us to.I'm going to take the atheist tack on this and say in the Bible, His word, He tells us to do lots of things, but we don't!
That's not the "atheist's tackt" That was the apostle Paul's. That's why I need a Savior!
Sad E: Just because someone (like pharaoh or Esau) gets a crappy deal in life, does it necessarily mean that God loves them any less?
If Yahweh brought Pharoah up to do his will, what choice is he (Pharoah) left with in regards to the ability to love God and establish a relationship with his maker.
DDog said it best:
Who determines the future? God or man?
DD:
Please keep in mind you are not debating me, but God's word!
Au contraire. Whenever we partially quote texts or string several together we are exercising our ra\tional faculties and an element of interpretation comes in. Paul wasn't averse to the practice, and neither should we be. That having been said it would be inappropriate to claim that we are merely presenting "God's Word" for an individual to argue with. It is never that simple, and such thought-stopping claims to authority are counter-productive, especially to an exJW mind.
He did not command these actions, according to the scripure he predestined them.
Oh? What's the difference? I've just got to see you explain that one in more detail...
If you say "both" I guess your God is not sovereign, he needs to see what man does before he acts.
You're misinterpreting my words DD. yes He is sovereign. It's not a case of seeing what man does before He acts - it's a case of He knows what man will do. He's outside of time remember? Past, present and future are immaterial to Him. He's working through history not because of it.
God doesn't have to force (make) people to sin, they are more than willing on their own. An important thing to remember is that people sin because they're sinners not the other way around.
You realise by saying this that you've just concurred with everything I've been saying all along?! So, just because they sin, does that mean God loves them any less? And it throws your theory of God predestining them to do wrong on it's head too.
Sin is simply missing the mark. Falling short of God's Glory.
In that case, pharaoh and Esau were still doing God's will. Their sin was not sin after all, they were bringing God's glory by doing wrong. Do they go to hell for doing that?
To answer simply, because He tells us to.I'm going to take the atheist tack on this and say in the Bible, His word, He tells us to do lots of things, but we don't!
That's not the "atheist's tackt" That was the apostle Paul's. That's why I need a Savior!
Yes it is!!! I'll develop it a little - I hope you only eat kosher food and use kosher clothing - cos God's word tells you to. Oh and you shouldn't really be talking to folks like me who 'preach a different gospel, run ahead, whatever. Need I continue?
Written words without the Spirit are dead - just words. sometimes, as LittleToe put it, we need to employ our God-given minds to understand what's really being said.
LT/ Mon ami
Au contraire. Whenever we partially quote texts or string several together we are exercising our ra\tional faculties and an element of interpretation comes in. Paul wasn't averse to the practice, and neither should we be. That having been said it would be inappropriate to claim that we are merely presenting "God's Word" for an individual to argue with. It is never that simple, and such thought-stopping claims to authority are counter-productive, especially to an exJW mind.
I guess we simply disagree, God's Word is the final Authority for believers exJW or not. Feel free to question me on anything I say ,or comment on, about the scripture I quote. I feel this is the JW's problem from the getgo, they believe the bible needs some outside person or persons to interpret. I like to let God speak for Himself. If someone won't except what God says why would they care what I say?
He did not command these actions, according to the scripture he predestined them.Oh? What's the difference? I've just got to see you explain that one in more detail...
That's simple. People disobey God's commands every day. But, when God predestines something, it always happens.
emo
You're misinterpreting my words DD. yes He is sovereign.
What does sovereign mean to you? We must be working with two different meanings.
You realise by saying this that you've just concurred with everything I've been saying all along?! So, just because they sin, does that mean God loves them any less? And it throws your theory of God predestining them to do wrong on it's head too.
Don't read to much into my words. If God predestined someone to do something against their will you could try to make that argument. I have no idea what you are getting at, concerning God loving them any more or less.
In that case, pharaoh and Esau were still doing God's will. Their sin was not sin after all, they were bringing God's glory by doing wrong. Do they go to hell for doing that?
Sin is sin. In the case of Jacob and Esau they were both sinners one had God's blessing the other did not. One was condemned the other received God's grace.
Here is another example:
Genesis 50:17
'Thus you shall say to Joseph, "Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong."' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18 Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place?" 20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." 21 "So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.Here the bible clearly says they "sinned" in verse 17, however in verse 20 we see God causing this deed for a "good" reason.
To answer simply, because He tells us to.I'm going to take the atheist tack on this and say in the Bible, His word, He tells us to do lots of things, but we don't!
That's not the "atheist's tack" That was the apostle Paul's. That's why I need a Savior!
Yes it is!!! I'll develop it a little - I hope you only eat kosher food and use kosher clothing - cos God's word tells you to. Oh and you shouldn't really be talking to folks like me who 'preach a different gospel, run ahead, whatever. Need I continue?
Romans 7:15
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,Written words without the Spirit are dead - just words.
Amen! So where is the Spirit?
as LittleToe put it, we need to employ our God-given minds to understand what's really being said.
Sounds like allot of flesh to me. Again, Where's the Spirit?
Written words without the Spirit are dead - just words.
Amen! So where is the Spirit?
as LittleToe put it, we need to employ our God-given minds to understand what's really being said.Sounds like allot of flesh to me. Again, Where's the Spirit?
Operating within/through our God-given minds?
I don't believe in sitting back and waiting for God to tell me what to do, similarly I don't believe the instructions words of the Bible are set in stone, otherwise I would only be eating kosher food (that is one of the very few commands of the Law which was left in place for NT believers - so again, do you only eat kosher, DD?)
I believe that a lot (if not most of the time) He's telling us to shift of our backsides and answer our questions and prayers ourselves, using the means He has given us - including our minds, and I believe that the Spirit operates through that by guiding us to the correct choices - not that we have to follow that guidance mind you!
God wants His children to grow up, step out and stand on their own two feet sometime ya know!
emo
What does sovereign mean to you?
Again, Where's the Spirit? Or how do you know the Spirit is working in you.
God wants His children to grow up, step out and stand on their own two feet sometime ya know!
This is the most unbiblical statement you have made so far. My God wants me to depend totally and completely on Him.
Yes it is!!! I'll develop it a little - I hope you only eat kosher food and use kosher clothing - cos God's word tells you to. Oh and you shouldn't really be talking to folks like me who 'preach a different gospel, run ahead, whatever. Need I continue?
I think you need to continue develop this a little more. Do you really think you can "stand on their own two feet"?
You asked "why should we pray for people to be 'saved' if God already decided anyway?"
I replied "because He tells us to."
You said "I'm going to take the atheist tack on this and say in the Bible, His word, He tells us to do lots of things, but we don't!"
Are you a believer or an Atheist? I'd like to hear the believers "tack" on this.
I don't "eat kosher food and use kosher clothing " because I'm not returning to the law to get clean, I have Christ.
This is the most unbiblical statement you have made so far. My God wants me to depend totally and completely on Him.
Do you know the reasoning behind the OT writers describing God as an eagle who protects us? To get its young to leave the nest and learn to fly (alone!), the eagle ruffles up the nest and the young fledgling either falls or gets pushed out in the process. Then the parent hovers nearby whilst the young eagle goes from frantically flapping to riding on the thermals. ONLY if the young eagle gets into serious difficulty will the parent fly beneath it and catch it before it falls to its death.
That is where the complete dependence and reliance comes in - a certainty that God will catch you when you fall.
In light of this description, was my previous statement unbiblical?
I don't "eat kosher food and use kosher clothing " because I'm not returning to the law to get clean, I have Christ.
I repeat from my previous post - that (ie kosher) is one of the very few commands of the Law which was left in place forNT believers.
So if the Bible is to be obeyed as God's literal word, why aren't you obeying every bit of it?
I'm a believer DD (maybe you have me down as unsaved though lol). Strangely, I don't pray for people to 'get saved', I do pray for God's guidance in their lives, that He might bless them, that they may come to knowledge of Him in their lives.
If I did pray for people to 'get saved', it would be because I don't know what the outcome of a person's life will be.
