God is patient (page 3)

Caedes

all our species can be ...is lying hypocrits

It's interesting that you take such a dim view of humanity, Perry. I think i can see where you obtained your twisted view of morality.

If I design and build something I am responsible if the item works as I designed it to, If it does not work then it is only me that is responsible to fix it. Your slopey shouldered god can try and deny responsibility but if he is as omnipotent and omniscient as you claim then it is entirely up to him to fix things.

Your desire to condemn all of humanity from the age of birth is your desire, and that desire is entirely incongruous with the concept of a loving god.

Is there freedom in preventing "wrong" choices.

Is there freedom in god killing and torturing millions of people despite not being willing to reveal yourself (beyond all doubt) to everyone on earth?

Our understanding is by necessity limited.

Really, by what necessity?

I would think it is necessary for god to accept us as we are (as he designed us) if his justice is to mean anything at all.

Perry

Peace to you A/C

Caedes says:

if he is as omnipotent and omniscient as you claim then it is entirely up to him to fix things

What is it about God's plan of salvation don't you understand? He offers to take the punishment deserved by us and to direct that wrath toward his own being that he wrought on the cross. Then, while we are still alive he offers to inhabit us by means of the Holy Spirit so that our victory over sin can be increasingly experienced now as a testimony to his glory.

Suppose you broke a bunch of traffic laws and you went before a judge and just after he totalled up all the fines, a stranger walked up and whispered in your ear that he'd like to not only pay your fines but also to magically make your desire to drive wrecklessly go away. Would you take the offer?

As children of wrath made fit for destruction, our natural tendency is to push the stranger out of the way, grab the baliff's gun and shoot the judge, thus eliminating the threat to our unbridled self-determination. Ok, so I watch too many action flicks, but you get the point.

One of the common features of Christian testimonies is that God had been working in their lives for a very long time to bring them to repentance or at least to the end of themselves in some meaningful way. It is easier to look back and see God's work ... hindsight is 20/20. I was sorta OK with the idea of God, but I had a big problem with him being my Lord. Now that I've walked with the Lord for a few years, I can testify the truthfulness of these words:

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

We simply do not want him by nature, religion,sometimes yes - God, no. So, we seek to do what you are doing. What I personally think doesn't really matter. You'll have an opportunity to present your case on Judgment Day. Unless of course you choose to listen to that whisper and enter into a "plea" agreement.

VoidEater

But who do i think i am to question him.

If you, a creation of His, have no right to question Him, then who does? And who else can? Shouldn't there be an ongoing dialogue between a Father and His children?

We are slaves to sin...you (and me) are perversions...lying hypocrits

It scares me to see how Perry perceives himself and those around him.

How do you determine right from wrong? This is the ultimate question for man.

The answer is right in front of us - by looking in the eyes of those we touch. There can't be a better, more pragmatic answer.

The way I see it is that either God could do away with his laws, thereby forfeiting his Godship

If He binds Himself to "laws" with devestating consequences, He has forfeited his Godship.

Where people go wrong is by putting God on trial. He is infinite, and unique... not like us ...a "First Cause". Our understanding is by necessity limited.

Then we cannot fathom anything useful about Him and cannot judge Him "good". Or, He is not the God described by typical Christianity.

eclipse

He is not your father and has no obligation toward you or anyone else that he has not adopted.

Hmm, Did God die or did you fire him? When did you become God's pesonal spokesman, Perry?

erynw

I have heard some fundies explain it is the "restraining power of the holy spirit" that allows bad things to happen, but not get so out of hand as to deteriorate into total chaos.

I call bullshit!

If the holy spirit can restrain evil, why not just go all out and prevent evil?

Perry

It scares me to see how Perry perceives himself and those around him.

But it's the truth. We may decide to not lie, not steal, etc. etc. etc. but can you permanently fix that? No, and unlike God or a self-existing universe ...that is something testable and provable. If I make the statement that I am not a liar, and then I lie.... I am a hypocrit. right or wrong?

People go into illusion to deal with difficulty..... usually justifying themselves by looking at others who are "worse". I'm not pulling a holier than thou, I am far more guilty than most I'm sure.

I don't consider myself to be "flawed"

This statement was made earlier in this thread. This is a premise. A whole body of true and accurate logic can be built on this premise. What ultimate good will it do if the premise is wrong? It can only entrench the illusion.

On the other hand, if the premise is true for everyone, then there is no real right and wrong, only perceived. How can any government be legitiamate to all, since right and wrong is subjective?

I can appreciate that many might not like what I'm saying.... but where is the faulty logic in all of this I ask?

Perry

If we are already Gods' children, why would he offer it as if we are not?

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God,

and be ye separate, saith the Lord, ...and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

eclipse

Makes sense, nothing like a good ol' Born Again fundy to inspire warm, fuzzy feelings about god.

So how do you know that god did not adopt that person already?

Cannot God adopt anyone, even people that you don't believe deserve it?

Just asking

Perry

But who do i think i am to question him.

If you, a creation of His, have no right to question Him, then who does? And who else can? Shouldn't there be an ongoing dialogue between a Father and His children?

Faulty premise. God is not your father. However he would love to be.

How do you determine right from wrong? This is the ultimate question for man.
The answer is right in front of us - by looking in the eyes of those we touch.
Lots of criminals look into the eyes of their victims. Why don't they see themselves as evil? If you say evil is determined by a majority consensus, then who are the ones shaping the value consensus in populations? Marketers? Political policy makers? Social engineers? Whose eyes do they look into before deciding what is evil and what is not? Where do those sources get their values? Are they trustworthy?

If He binds Himself to "laws" with devestating consequences, He has forfeited his Godship.

Then the statement must also true that if a judge that we duly elect has judged us and we experience"devastating consequences" he must forfeit his judgeship. Do you really want a legal system like that?
Where people go wrong is by putting God on trial. He is infinite, and unique... not like us ...a "First Cause". Our understanding is by necessity limited.
Then we cannot fathom anything useful about Him and cannot judge Him "good". Or, He is not the God described by typical Christianity.

Who says? I don't understand everything about computers, but they are useful to me and my family because we own an online e-commerce website that is solely responsible for putting food on our table.

If you knew everything there was to know about God, he wouldn't much of a God would he?

Anti-Christ

Peace to you too perry.

This statement was made earlier in this thread. This is a premise. A whole body of true and accurate logic can be built on this premise. What ultimate good will it do if the premise is wrong? It can only entrench the illusion.
On the other hand, if the premise is true for everyone, then there is no real right and wrong, only perceived. How can any government be legitiamate to all, since right and wrong is subjective?
I can appreciate that many might not like what I'm saying.... but where is the faulty logic in all of this I ask?

Touché. I totally agree with what I highlighted that's why I'm an anarchist. In my point of view no government is "legit" I am my own government. I think that's the biggest difference between you and me you believe that humans are fundamentally evil and I believe that we are fundamentally good there are some exceptions of course but I think we can get along with out the fear of punishment. I live by a moral code and that code is based on the simple fact that I want to live in a society that people respect each other so I respect others, example I don't want to live in a society were people steal from each other so I don't steal simple is that. So yes in a sense there is no right on wrong only consequences to actions, to every actions there is a reaction.

God is patient

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