God is patient

by freedomfighter 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • Perry
    Perry
    I think that's the biggest difference between you and me ... I believe that we are fundamentally good there are some exceptions of course but I think we can get along with out the fear of punishment.

    Yes, that's difference. Different premises.

    Personally, fear of judgement never would have led me to Christ. I was never a fearful person... always the risk taker. For me, it was a combination of some nasty and persistent personality flaws and the insane level of unloving, mechanicalness in my family and various congregations that did it for me. Human suffering was a big factor as well. Much later I started to love God...after I accepted Him.

    In a weird sort of way, I owe the Watchtower a word of thanks. I never would have chosen God in a million years had my family life been intact.

    Good Luck

  • Perry
    Perry

    :If the holy spirit can restrain evil, why not just go all out and prevent evil?:

    ----Shall He prevent other's or yours first? -------If you are following my logic here, what is needed is not more oppression or "prevention" as you put it, but rather Judgment. In your world, people would simply be forcibly prevented from doing evil whether they wanted to or not.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,
    Interesting thread. Here are a couple of short passages to throw in the mix which are relevant as to why God allows evil for the time being and why His way's is far better than ours. If you believe He created the whole universe and everything in it, including us, then it stands to reason that He has a much better solution than we do.

    2 Peter 3 (New International Version)

    The Day of the Lord

    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


    Isaiah 55 (New International Version)

    Invitation to the Thirsty

    6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.

    7 Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
    Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

    8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,"
    declares the LORD.

    9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Regards,
    Stephen

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    But it's the truth. [We are slaves to sin...you (and me) are perversions...lying hypocrits]

    Speak for yourself. I am not a slave to sin, I am not a perversion, I am not a hypocrite. If you believe these things of all people, you have a narrow field of view for whatever reason. I would think this worldview leaves one in a very dark, unhappy place.

    Lots of criminals look into the eyes of their victims. Why don't they see themselves as evil? If you say evil is determined by a majority consensus, then who are the ones shaping the value consensus in populations? Marketers? Political policy makers? Social engineers? Whose eyes do they look into before deciding what is evil and what is not? Where do those sources get their values? Are they trustworthy?

    Perhaps I should have said, most people are in touch with their humanity and can tell when they are causing harm - an important caveat comes up when considering sociopaths and certain religious zealots, who either lack empathy or the ability to link the harm they cause to their own actions.

    This doesn't take a lot of scenario building nor removal to the esoteric or abstract. If you need a book to tell you that hurting other people is wrong, that's a comment on your limitations - not mine.

    Then the statement must also true that if a judge that we duly elect has judged us and we experience"devastating consequences" he must forfeit his judgeship. Do you really want a legal system like that?

    Human judges are not God. God is purportedly all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful. He alone invents his own laws. He alone can correct the structures he has created.

    Human judges enforce laws created by bodies of people for their own needs.

    I would think the difference should be obvious. Why would you want to limit God's authority like that?

    If you knew everything there was to know about God, he wouldn't much of a God would he?

    My point exactly. Why anthrpomorphize him, but only where convenient? Why make him omnipotent, but only where convenient?

    If we are truly made in His image, we would be equipped to understand and judge Him. If He is utterly alien, then He's not going to follow our expectations very well.

    EDIT:

    If the holy spirit can restrain evil, why not just go all out and prevent evil?: ----Shall He prevent other's or yours first?

    He's God - why does he have to do things in sequence, as if he's a mere man? Will he stalk the Earth killing the apostates one by one at Armageddon?

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi freedomfighter,
    Can I be so bold as to answer the questions in you bio?

    OK being presumptuous, here goes!

    1/ If God is Love then why won't He DO SOMETHING.

    You have part of the answer in my previous post. He has and He is doing something. However, it is not what most people expect who do not know Him or have any idea who He really is.

    2/ Why should i shun somebody because they have made a mistake?

    You shouldn't! The WTO takes 1 Corinthians 5 to the nth degree is shunning people left, right and center. The verses that balance these are those such as Mark 2:16-18 (New International Version)

    16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

    17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

    3/ The Governing Body has made many False prophesies, can i now believe them or are they still wrong?

    No, of course not! In the Old Testament false prophets were stoned. These are prophetic for the WTO

    Ezekiel 13:9
    My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

    Matthew 7 (New International Version)

    A Tree and Its Fruit

    15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    2 Peter 2:1
    [ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves

    This is important.

    1 John 4:1
    [ Test the Spirits ] Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Looks like the WTO has failed the test many times.

    4/ If BIG mistakes have been made, why not appologise? I am 35yrs old and feel like i'm only 20yrs old emotionally because of the BullSh*t i was fed. However, i now have a new life, a real one and i like listening to peoples differing points of view. FF

    The WTO won't admit mistakes, just use more lies to cover them.

    Cool! That is why I am here too, to discuss and listen to difference points of view.

    All the best,
    Stephen

  • Perry
    Perry
    Speak for yourself. I am not a slave to sin, I am not a perversion, I am not a hypocrite.

    You make several premises here.....all of which are testable. Here's what this study says:

    FOR RELEASE: Feb. 18, 2004

    Contact: Blaine P. Friedlander Jr.
    Office: 607-255-3290
    E-Mail:
    [email protected]

    ITHACA, N.Y. -- People lie, research has shown, in one-fourth of their daily, social interactions. But according to Cornell University communications researchers, people are most likely to lie on the telephone.

    Hancock and Cornell graduate students Jennifer Thom-Santelli and Thompson Ritchie are authors of the peer-reviewed study, "Deception and Design: Te Impact of Communication on Lying Behavior," to be presented April 24-29 at the Computer-Human Interaction (CHI) scientific meeting in Vienna, Austria.

    Here's another study: "let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written"

    So is lying a good thing or a bad thing would you say? This is why I used the word hypocrit. Because people practice what they claim is bad and then turn around and judge others for what they are guilty of. Like the WT social groups have lots of unwritten rules about what kinds of lies are more grevious than others, and whether of not you are friends with the person you are lying to.

    I guess your statements above could be proven if you could show that you approve of lying, have never judged others for lying to you and never presented yourself as an honest person. I am curious....have you ever told a lie?

    Perhaps I should have said, most people are in touch with their humanity and can tell when they are causing harm

    Like all the people on FBI Files, Court TV, COPS, Justice Files, Current, Cold Case Files, the Local and National News, as well as the millions upon millions of inmates in our justice systems?

    If you need a book to tell you that hurting other people is wrong, that's a comment on your limitations - not mine.

    People don't need a holy book as much as they need ability. Knowledge alone won't do it. The JW spin on John 17: 3 is a lie.

    Human judges are not God. God is purportedly all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful. He alone invents his own laws. He alone can correct the structures he has created.

    Human judges determine crime and punishment and so because God is more powerful he must correct something called the structures he created. I don't get it. Most people would assume that the better the judge, the more crimes would be solved. Can you spend a little more time articulating this point?

    If you knew everything there was to know about God, he wouldn't much of a God would he?

    My point exactly. Why anthrpomorphize him, but only where convenient? Why make him omnipotent, but only where convenient?

    Where exactly did I take away his Omnipotence? I did give an opposing example in response to your premise that if we can't know everything about God, then we can know nothing. I fail to see the correlation between this and limiting his Omnipotence "where convenient".

    If we are truly made in His image, we would be equipped to understand and judge Him. If He is utterly alien, then He's not going to follow our expectations very well.

    I want to keep this resectful, but that is just silly. Can a dog or a bird imagine an omnipotent being, existing outside of time where he could call himself the Alpha and the Omega? But we can imagine such a Being precisely because we are in his image, and they are not. Because of such qualities, we cannot judge Him because we cannot see the end but he can. Have you ever walked into a seemingly awkward situation and everyone had to explain the details because what seemed to be happening wasn't really what was happening? Sitcoms are based on these kinds of scenarios.

    Those kinds of things don't happen to God. You are in his image but you are not infinite....I'm sorry.

    If the holy spirit can restrain evil, why not just go all out and prevent evil?: ----Shall He prevent other's or yours first?

    He's God - why does he have to do things in sequence, as if he's a mere man? Will he stalk the Earth killing the apostates one by one at Armageddon?

    I have truly had a hard time with this particular argument. I think another poster was saying essentially the same thing.

    What I think this argument is basically saying is that why doesn't God just prevent sin and evil instead of punish it. I don't know. But I know that he knows. He can see the end product, I can't. Keep in mind that he deflected a great deal of the punishment meant for mankind onto himself.... for us; enough of it where in his dying breath he could claim "It is Finished". None need suffer punishment, he took enough of it for all.

    I know with my 2 1/2 year old we are moving out of prevention and into punishment phase and getting great results.... time outs, strong talks etc.

    If I accurately described your argument about the prevention of evil; can you comment on how a person could be Free in such a restrictive world?

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Perry,

    God warned Cain not to let his anger get the better of him, but he didn't warn Abel his brother was going to kill him.

    God has the immediate power to end suffering NOW - the Bible does not explain why he allows it. 2,800 odd years ago, Habakkuk was saying the same thing. 3,500 years ago Asaph was distressed that the wicked do not received an adversarial judgement.

    Nothing has changed.

    God is not bound by our time. We do not live long enough to see God's promises spoken some 6,000 years ago.

    He know the number of hairs on our head - so he does notice us.

    I have tried to understand the reason that God permits suffering, and, it all comes down to this...

    God is too powerful to give consideration to fairness.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Perry,

    In your illustration of the speeding ticket and fine,

    Jesus paid the fine but the accountant did not credit the account.

    If Jesus died for us, why is the world still in a mess?

    The transaction did not go through.

  • erynw
    erynw
    In your world, people would simply be forcibly prevented from doing evil whether they wanted to or not.

    And you have a problem with this concept because....... Why was man ever "created" with this propensity to begin with? Why has it been allowed to run rampant? If god can put a stop to it, why doesn't he? Didn't adam's death do away with his sin? Doesn't the bible say the son will not inherit the sins of his father? WTF is up with that 180 degree turn around? Yeah, in my world, this kind of BS wouldn't be happening.

  • freedomfighter
    freedomfighter

    Chalam,

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

    Having just recently leaving the JW's i have many adjustments to make with my thinking. Yes, i have a brain that i may use now!

    At this time ALL organised religion is repulsive to me. It puts humans in a position of power which is usually abused.

    Take care

    FF

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit