"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

by digderidoo 261 Replies latest jw friends

funkyderek

Chalam:
Yes I understand some of your reasoning. I had a lot of troubles when reading the Old Testament and I was a new born infant in faith.
A little patronising, don't you think? In fact, it's usually the case that the more people study what's actually in the bible, the more they have trouble reconciling the barbaric monster Yahweh with a god of love.
It seems that God was almost double minded and I had difficulty reconciling the God of the Old Testament with that of the New.
That's understandable. They are, after all, different books about essentially different gods. One is the Jewish god; the other is his Christian derivative.
The WTS love the God of the Old. That is why they choose the name of Jehovah. They like rules and regulations, judgement, wroth, anger etc.
That's what the god of the OT was all about. He's exactly as nasty as Dawkins' description.
I love the God of the NT. His name is Jesus, and He is love, He is peace, He is just, He is true, He is righteous.
Well, partly. He still threatened eternal damnation to those who didn't "love" him.
God in the OT is concealed, in the NT He is revealed.
No, the OT is quite clear about God's character. But it was written by different people, at a different time, with a different language and different beliefs.
Jesus is the same as Yahweh in the OT "I am the Father are one" so as you get to know about Him you will see that they are indeed the same but from a different viewpoint.
In a sense. Jesus is the Christian reinterpretation of the Jewish god YHWH. With the influence from Greek and Roman philosophies, the writers of the NT were a (slightly) more enlightened sort than those of the OT, and the god-man they invented reflected that.
The God of love, peace, kindness, compassion can be found in the OT too.
Some examples, perhaps?
So my advise is this, if the OT is giving you trouble then read the NT!
You mean pick and choose which bits to believe in? Why believe any of it?
John 14:6 (New International Version)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So you are going to have to get to know Jesus before you can understand the Father.
Perhaps your god's triune nature is responsible for his schizophrenic personality.
My testimony is that I am doing this and I have no problems with reading the OY any more.
Good for you. But reading is (relatively) easy. Understanding it in a historical and cultural context can be a little more difficult. You don't seem to have managed that yet.
Hope that helps!
What do you think?
Chalam

Hi funkyderek,
Please see below.

"A little patronising, don't you think? In fact, it's usually the case that the more people study what's actually in the bible, the more they have trouble reconciling the barbaric monster Yahweh with a god of love."

I am sorry if that sentiment was conveyed, I certainly do not mean to patronise anyone, my apologies if that was received.
As I said, the more I have studied the Bible to more I find I do not have a problem with God in the OT and God in the NT. I believe that will only happen if you actually get to know Jesus.

"That's understandable. They are, after all, different books about essentially different gods. One is the Jewish god; the other is his Christian derivative."

No I believe they are the same, please see my post here http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/151373/1.ashx

"The WTS love the God of the Old. That is why they choose the name of Jehovah. They like rules and regulations, judgement, wroth, anger etc.
That's what the god of the OT was all about. He's exactly as nasty as Dawkins' description."

As I explained, I also find love, compassion and kindness in there too.

"I love the God of the NT. His name is Jesus, and He is love, He is peace, He is just, He is true, He is righteous.
Well, partly. He still threatened eternal damnation to those who didn't "love" him."

Well if you want to view it in that way I agree, He is the same as the God in the OT. However, is did die on the cross for you. I can't say I would want to do that for anyone.

"God in the OT is concealed, in the NT He is revealed.
No, the OT is quite clear about God's character. But it was written by different people, at a different time, with a different language and different beliefs."

Well the point is that the OT point to the coming of Jesus. There are many references but they neither knew what Jesus would be when He arrived or really why He came. The NT reveals all that, read any of Paul's letters.

"Jesus is the same as Yahweh in the OT "I am the Father are one" so as you get to know about Him you will see that they are indeed the same but from a different viewpoint.
In a sense. Jesus is the Christian reinterpretation of the Jewish god YHWH. With the influence from Greek and Roman philosophies, the writers of the NT were a (slightly) more enlightened sort than those of the OT, and the god-man they invented reflected that."

No, Jesus was a Jew. Paul who was also a Jew said that the Jews should partake of the new covenant and live by the Holy Spirit, not the law.

"The God of love, peace, kindness, compassion can be found in the OT too.
Some examples, perhaps?"

Start here, there are many

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=compassion&x=0&y=0

"So my advise is this, if the OT is giving you trouble then read the NT!
You mean pick and choose which bits to believe in? Why believe any of it?"

No, I stated before I have no problem with reading or believing in any of the Bible now.

"So you are going to have to get to know Jesus before you can understand the Father.
Perhaps your god's triune nature is responsible for his schizophrenic personality."

Please see the other thread. The Trinity is many places in the Bible.

"My testimony is that I am doing this and I have no problems with reading the OY any more.
Good for you. But reading is (relatively) easy. Understanding it in a historical and cultural context can be a little more difficult. You don't seem to have managed that yet."

Is that necessary? The Bible doesn't say to become a historian, it says to have faith.

All the best,
Stephen
Caedes

As I said, the more I have studied the Bible to more I find I do not have a problem with God in the OT and God in the NT. I believe that will only happen if you actually get to know Jesus.
So in order to understand the bible you have to have faith in jesus, why do you have faith in jesus? Because of what it says in the bible.
Ahh, it's the reasoning merry-go-round
funkyderek

Chalam:
Well if you want to view it in that way I agree, He is the same as the God in the OT. However, is did die on the cross for you. I can't say I would want to do that for anyone.
Of course not. Because it's not really something you can do for someone. You can risk your life in order to save someone else's, you can accept a 100% risk to do so, but that's not what your god did. He pretended to be a human, then pretended to die in order to pretend to forgive the imaginary transgressions of those who pretended that such a thing made sense.
"The God of love, peace, kindness, compassion can be found in the OT too.
Some examples, perhaps?"

Start here, there are many

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=compassion&x=0&y=0
I checked that out. Let's look at some examples:
Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
Well, Yahweh certainly claims to be compassionate. And I've no doubt someone like you will just take his word for it. But what does he say immediately afterward?
Exodus 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. [Still sounds like an OK guy] Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
Ooh, and then he spoils it all by telling how he's going to punish innocent children for things their great-grandparents did.
But maybe that's an isolated incident. After all, elsewhere in the OT, the unchanging Yahweh declares that he won't punish children for the sins of their parents, so perhaps whoever wrote down what he said in Exodus misheard him.
Another:
Deuteronomy 13:17 None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers,
That's not so bad. We could all use some mercy from time to time. So what caused Yahweh to be so angry in the first place?
Deuteronomy 13:12-16: If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
You call that compassion? Really? How sick are you? If there's a town where anyone worships a god other than Yahweh, then all the people in that town must be killed and all their property destroyed. You may call that compassion or mercy, as your god does; to me it seems more like ethnic cleansing.
I don't really have the stomach to detail the many more brutal examples of your god's "compassion". He does occasionally seem to extend mercy to his people, but usually it is only to stop the suffering he has inflicted upon them as a result of some imagined slight.
Well the point is that the OT point to the coming of Jesus. There are many references but they neither knew what Jesus would be when He arrived or really why He came. The NT reveals all that, read any of Paul's letters.
The NT is an unauthorised sequel to the OT, written by different people with a clear agenda of inventing incidents that could be linked to events or prophecies in the OT.
Is that necessary? The Bible doesn't say to become a historian, it says to have faith.
Well, if your goal is to obey the bible rather than understand it, then you'll certainly need blind faith. Luckily, you seem to have it in abundance. There's not really much point in my having a detailed discussion with you on this subject if you choose ignorance over knowledge. So good luck with that!
snowbird

I don't have a problem with God. When I read the Bible, I see a Person doing whatever is necessary to protect His people. Yes, there is a lot of blood and gore, but NEVER will you find the Israelites making a God-sanctioned unprovoked attack on other nations. NEVER.
He warned Egypt and the Canaanites before He executed judgment on them. The soldiers who made up His army were not allowed to have sexual relations while on a campaign. When you see all the war orphans produced and forgotten by soldiers of the U.S. and other countries, you can see the wisdom of this prohibition.
Much has been made about the complete wiping out of cities and towns by the Israelites. Again, His wisdom comes into play here. For instance, if only the men were killed, what was to become of the women and children? Oh, they could have been taken captive and made slaves to the Israelites, but who wants to be a slave?
My great-grandparents were slaves, toiling on plantations in Wilcox and Dallas counties here in Alabama. My maternal grandmother died in 1987 at the age of 104. Their history, mostly oral, shows that at times they wished they were dead. Ever hear the Negro spiritual entitled "O Freedom?"
So, how can we chastise God for dealing with people and situations the way He saw fit? Were we there? What would we have done? It is too easy to sit in relative comfort and do armchair theorizing, but as a Native American saying goes, before we judge anyone (God included), we should be willing to walk two moons in that person's moccasins.
Sylvia
BurnTheShips

The God of love, peace, kindness, compassion can be found in the OT too.
BurnTheShips

They like rules and regulations, judgement, wroth, anger etc.
I think that the commands to carry out warfare against the conquered peoples occupying Canaan is the single hardest thing to accept and understand. For me, this is a help-- death is not the end. These people were rushed to the great beyond, yes indeed, but if the afterlife is good, what is death? God is the master of life and death. Either way, the conquered peoples were far from innocent. Canaanite religious practices included child sacrifice, bestiality, incest, male and female prostitution, etc. According to Genesis 15:16 God would not destroy them until their guilt called for their complete destruction in judgment. The OT takes into account, and is written from the perspective of, the realities of the people of those times. Harsh as it was, that is how things were. The OT recognizes human failings and does its best to address them. Look at the Mosaic law regading slavery.
Slavery was universally practiced in those times, and indeed, until very recently. The OT laws were designed to ensure better treatment for the oppressed, and not to validate the practice. and all slaves were freed anyway after six years (Ex. 21:2; Dt. 15:12) or every Jubilee (50) year (Lev. 25:10, 47-54). Killing a slave was punishable (Ex. 21:20), runaway slaves were free (Dt. 23:15-16), permanently injured slaves were granted freedom (Ex. 21:26-27), When slaves were freed they were given supplies like grain, wine, and livestock (Dt. 15:12-15).
Besides, even Jesus was not reticient to state why someone would not enter the kingdom of heaven and he invoked the image of a fiery judgement more than once.
funkyderek

snowbird:
Yes, there is a lot of blood and gore, but NEVER will you find the Israelites making a God-sanctioned unprovoked attack on other nations. NEVER.
You're kidding, right? Have you not read the bible? What about the Midianites, the Moabites, the Amorites, the Amalekites etc.?
The soldiers who made up His army were not allowed to have sexual relations while on a campaign.
I don't recall such a prohibition. Can you provide a source please? It certainly seemed that sex was the intended reward when after slaughtering all the male Midianites - all of them - and all the females who were not virgins - the Israelite soldiers were allowed, nay, ordered to save the virgin girls for themselves (Numbers 31)
Much has been made about the complete wiping out of cities and towns by the Israelites. Again, His wisdom comes into play here. For instance, if only the men were killed, what was to become of the women and children? Oh, they could have been taken captive and made slaves to the Israelites, but who wants to be a slave?
You disgust me. As if genocide or slavery were the only options available.
My great-grandparents were slaves, toiling on plantations in Wilcox and Dallas counties here in Alabama. My maternal grandmother died in 1987 at the age of 104. Their history, mostly oral, shows that at times they wished they were dead. Ever hear the Negro spiritual entitled "O Freedom?"
And yet you defend the actions of a people who killed or enslaved anybody who was different?
So, how can we chastise God for dealing with people and situations the way He saw fit?
Because the god you're talking about is the invention of a tribe of barbarians who used him to justify their atrocities. They were neither the first nor the last group of people to do so.
Were we there? What would we have done?
Who knows? Had I lived 3,000 years ago in a tribe of warring nomads I would probably have obeyed their laws as the punishment for disobeying any of them was usually execution by stoning. I am glad not to live under such a primitive and barbaric regime.
It is too easy to sit in relative comfort and do armchair theorizing, but as a Native American saying goes, before we judge anyone (God included), we should be willing to walk two moons in that person's moccasins.
Yes it's easy for modern educated people to look back at the primitive tribes of the Middle East of 3,000 years ago - or to look across at them today - and criticise the individuals who obey what the believe to be the commands of God. It's important to understand that they did what they did (and do what they do) because they genuinely believed that the creator of the universe wanted them to commit the most heinous atrocities against their fellow humans. But absolving those individuals of (some) blame for being born in the wrong time and place is not the same as excusing their actions or the philosophy behind them. That someone living in the civilised world in the 21st century could do so sickens me. You should be ashamed of yourself.
BurnTheShips:
Yahweh certainly talks compassion, mercy, forgiveness etc. but shouldn't he be judged on what he does rather than what he says?
BurnTheShips

Yahweh certainly talks compassion, mercy, forgiveness etc. but shouldn't he be judged on what he does rather than what he says?
Ok. Lets go with that. On what basis will you judge Yahweh-and will your judgement be just?
Sunnygal41

there's a great book out, called "Jehovah Unmaked". I highly recommend it, even though the gentleman who wrote it is a Gnostic Christian, he has some wonderful points he makes about the veracity of biblical translation and it's canon..........

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

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