"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

by digderidoo 261 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  snowbird

  For me the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. I dont see how the two can be different.

  I knew I said I was finished with this topic, but it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind.

  Paul, I believe the same as you, that YHWH, the God of the OT, is none other than Jesus Christ. That is what you meant, isn't it? Just thinking about it fills me with awe! The warring, conquering, in-your-face Deity becoming even lower than His angels!

  However, that would be in keeping with his designation, I AM, don't you think? He can and will do whatever it takes to carry out His program. There is so much in the Bible that is merely given cursory mention by the WTS because they were so intent on pushing their 1914 agenda.

  Derek, first Dawg accused me of condoning slavery. Now, you accuse me of condoning child rape! How in the world did you read that into any of my replies? PLEASE!!! Will you for a minute just stop jumping to conclusions and listen?

  I NEVER said I approved of or condoned any of the battle tactics of the Israelites. Thankfully, that is not my place to do so. I DID say it is not for us to question how God handled His business. You ASSume the Israelite soldiers were child rapists because in Numbers 31 Moses told them to spare the virgins. Did it ever occur to you that these virgins were to become wives of the soldiers?

  In Deuteronomy 20-21 Moses gave explicit instructions on how warfare was to be waged against their enemies. First, they were to sue for peace - allowing any who wished to yield to them. Then, they were to besiege the city - still allowing for peaceful surrender.

  Only, and I repeat only, the inhabitants of those cities close by the Israelites were completely wiped out. The women and children of the distant cities were spared. The virgins could become wives of Israelite men and were to be treated with kindness and dignity.

  Now, I realize you don't like the Bible, YHWH, or the WTS. That is all good and well. What is NOT good and well is for you to pronounce sweeping judgments on any and everybody who doesn't see things your way.

  This may be my last post on this subject, so I'll conclude by stating that I'm sorry I said that you sicken me - what I meant to say is that your acrimonious posting style sickens me.

  Sylvia
• 

  funkyderek

  snowbird:

  Now, you accuse me of condoning child rape! How in the world did you read that into any of my replies?

  God commanded it in Numbers 31. You are devoted to that god. You refuse adamantly to condemn those actions. That's how I read into your replies that you condone it.

  Will you for a minute just stop jumping to conclusions and listen?

  OK, fine. Maybe I've misinterpreted you. So I'll listen...

  I NEVER said I approved of or condoned any of the battle tactics of the Israelites. Thankfully, that is not my place to do so.

  No, but it is your place to condemn them as the crimes against humanity that they so evidently were.

  I DID say it is not for us to question how God handled His business.

  Yes you did. Even if he handles his business by ordering the rape and murder of children.

  You ASSume the Israelite soldiers were child rapists because in Numbers 31 Moses told them to spare the virgins. Did it ever occur to you that these virgins were to become wives of the soldiers?

  Yes! Of course that occurred to me. That's the whole point. Of course they were to become the wives (or concubines, or slaves) of the Israelite soldiers who had butchered their families. They weren't asked if they wished to do so. There was no lower age limit. I consider the forced marriage of a child to be rape and I'm surprised you don't.

  Only, and I repeat only, the inhabitants of those cities close by the Israelites were completely wiped out. The women and children of the distant cities were spared.

  Oh, well that's OK then. As long as they only commited total genocide locally! You really think that's morally acceptable behaviour?

  The virgins could become wives of Israelite men and were to be treated with kindness and dignity.

  Again, they had no choice in the matter. Perhaps they had a choice between being raped or being murdered but I don't think that's much of a choice.

  Now, I realize you don't like the Bible, YHWH, or the WTS. That is all good and well. What is NOT good and well is for you to pronounce sweeping judgments on any and everybody who doesn't see things your way.

  It's not a sweeping judgment. It's a very specific judgment on you, as someone who has repeatedly defended the actions of those who raped and murdered children and who worships a god who commanded that. I judge you to be morally backward as a result of your obviously backward morals.

  This may be my last post on this subject, so I'll conclude by stating that I'm sorry I said that you sicken me - what I meant to say is that your acrimonious posting style sickens me.

  Well, you - you who repeatedly condone rape and murder - you sicken me. I couldn't give a flying f*ck about your posting style.
• 

  Caedes

  I find the most interesting thing about this topic is that the theists are perfectly prepared to retreat to a position of 'who are YOU to judge god'

  How is it possible to reconcile this with the fact that your god, gave you the ability to make moral judgements, by what right do you dare to refuse to use your god given abilities, he gave you those abilities for a reason, surely?

  Your god also gave you the ability to reason so that you can question 'holy' books and 'holy' men

  All of these abilities were given you by your god for a reason, listen to what your god given moral compass is telling you, don't believe blindly what someone wrote in an old book. You will find it refreshing not having to justify murder, rape, terrorism, slavery and genocide.
• 

  snowbird

  Derek, you posted:

  Well, you - you who repeatedly condone rape and murder - you sicken me. I couldn't give a flying f*ck about your posting style.

  I recant my apology for saying that you sicken me. That's all I have to say to you.

  Caedes, you stated:

  How is it possible to reconcile this with the fact that your god, gave you the ability to make moral judgements, by what right do you dare to refuse to use your god given abilities, he gave you those abilities for a reason, surely?

  Your god also gave you the ability to reason so that you can question 'holy' books and 'holy' men

  All of these abilities were given you by your god for a reason, listen to what your god given moral compass is telling you, don't believe blindly what someone wrote in an old book. You will find it refreshing not having to justify murder, rape, terrorism, slavery and genocide

  That's the crux of the matter; our reasoning abilities were given to us. Since the giver enriches the recipient, then God's abilities have to be far greater than ours. That's why I wouldn't attempt to justify His actions.

  Gardner C. Taylor, one of Dr. M. L. King's mentors, once observed that the Bible was written by, to, and for those who suffer oppression. At one time, I would have taken issue with that statement, but now I understand it clearly. The Canaanite nations that the Israelites were given the command to dispossess were far more populous and mighty than the Israelites. If YHWH hadn't fought for Israel, what would have happened to them? Don't you think the Canaanites would have done far worse to the Israelites than the Israelites did to the Canaanites?

  Perhaps, as a member of a group that has been systematically oppressed, my perspective is skewed. But, believe you me, I've questioned everything. My conclusion? We don't know half the story. I believe God allowed those shocking things to be recorded in the Bible in order to prepare us for the future horrors that are coming. If I read the Bible correctly (and I believe I do) murder, rape, terrorism, slavery, and genocide are all looming on the horizon - not just for some remote corner of the globe, but for the entire world.

  Sylvia
• 

  digderidoo

  What amazes me more than anything is to think that one day we all used to knock doors preaching "the good news", yet now we debate the very existence of God.

  For me i cannot see how all the things in the world evolved. Everyone has to accept that something has always been here, evolution doesn't answer that ultimate question. Is it the God of the bible, probably not.

  If we are created does this mean we have to worship that creator? For me no.

  I can see Dawkins point of view, so for me the God of the bible is not the God for me, unless someone can answer this basic charge.

  Paul
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  >> That's why I wouldn't attempt to justify His actions.

  Think of the best, most moral, most loving person you know.

  Now think of the most honest person you know. (If they are the same person, think of the second most honest)

  Now imagine how you'd react if the honest person told you that the loving person purposely drowned a baby.

  You'd probably start by saying, "No! Really? No, he couldn't have! There must be some mistake!" You trust your honest friend, but you also trust in the morality of your loving friend. There is a disconnect here.

  It wouldn't even occur to you to say, "Well, if he did drown that baby, he must've had a GOOD reason." You'd investigate it, if for no other reason than to clear the good name of your loving friend. Your honest friend MUST be mistaken. Perhaps it was someone else? Or an accident? SOMETHING.

  Why would you investigate heinous claims made about your friend, but accept them about your god? Why is it outside the realm of possibility that your god DID NOT drown babies, and commit genocide, and all the other things in the Bible? Perhaps the Bible is not an accurate record of your god's activities. Before accepting that he's a baby-killer, wouldn't it be prudent to check it out? Why would you choose not to do so?

  BTW, I say all this, while knowing *I* worshiped him for 20 years without "checking it out". So I'm not being sarcastic or flip, I'm being sincere and serious.

  >>You will find it refreshing not having to justify murder, rape, terrorism, slavery and genocide.

  Sage.

  Dave
• 

  snowbird

  Gardner C. Taylor, one of Dr. M. L. King's mentors, once observed that the Bible was written by, to, and for those who suffer oppression.

  I tried to edit this 4 times and was given an ERROR message.

  Dave, your sincerity shines through all the way from wherever you are.

  Let me share something with you. Right now, the whole state of Alabama is in an uproar. What's the cause? A father of four is in jail in Mobile County for taking his four children (he confessed to the deed) to the top of the Dauphin Island Bridge and pitching them down 80 feet to their death. You can find the story by googling Al.com and looking for the Mobile Register.

  I don't know if the story made the national news - the family is Asian refugees - so it may not be considered worthy of mention. However, as I said, the entire state is shocked and appalled. People are holding candlelight vigils, raising money, and just coming together as one to give comfort and support to the bereaved. It is a terrible tragedy that has touched the most hardened of us.

  My purpose in bringing this up is to show the duality of our personalities. Some of us are loving, kind, and compassionate, but, given the right set of circumstances, we can become just the opposite. Conversely, some who are mean, hurtful, and spiteful, given the right circumstances, can also become just the opposite. Does God also have a dual personality? I don't know. I confess the thought of killing and pillaging upsets me terribly, but I no longer question God's actions. I've simply adopted a wait-and-see attitude.

  Sylvia
• 

  Gopher

  I see a lot of believer - non believer debate here, and usually steer clear of the loud arguments so as to retain my own sanity. I don't any longer wish to try to convince someone to change a strongly-entrenched belief or philosophy.

  However, I will address a couple of interesting points from Digderidoo.

  For me i cannot see how all the things in the world evolved.

  I'd suggest reading up more on evolutionary studies to see how the fossil record supports this model of the gradual development of the species. Even many religions are coming around to agreeing that evolution is a scientific explanation of the development of species. They believe God started life and incorporated the seeds of evolution into the process.

  Everyone has to accept that something has always been here,

  What do you mean by "something"? Life? This assertion of yours is not something "everyone has to accept". What happened at the beginning. or before, is not provable.

  If by something you mean a Creator or a God, that's impossible to prove that he was always here. "God was always here" is an article of faith. If there is a God, surely you would agree he is very sophisticated and complex. So this God popped up out of nowhere? That's more difficult to believe than evolution, because if there is a God, surely he is more sophisticated and complicated than his own creation. If God popped up out of nowhere, that actually (in an unusual fashion) proves evolution.

  evolution doesn't answer that ultimate question.

  Evolution is not about the origin of all life, or how everything got started. Evolution is about the origin of species. The ultimate question -- if you mean how did everything start -- is a matter of belief, because it cannot be proven or disproven scientifically as to whether a god of some sort got this all started. The theory of evolution is about the development of species AFTER the beginning.

  If we are created does this mean we have to worship that creator? For me no.

  I believe it's the self-appointed representatives of deities who originated the notion that their deity must be worshipped. In that way they could gain more influence over the common people, by somehow (mysteriously) representing the great unseen being.
• 

  R.Crusoe

  Not an argument really since all the deeds are there to see!

  More a case of whether the rules of 'Bible Living' are really Living at all for humans who have no choice to do otherwise!

  Plus maybe the ruling classes of the day found them very laws useful to get people fearful and obedient whilst they put all their energies into which wife to choose tonight since over 50 look hot aand are all competing for my time!
• 

  hillary_step

  Snowbird,

  Yes, there is a lot of blood and gore, but NEVER will you find the Israelites making a God-sanctioned unprovoked attack on other nations. NEVER

  The Caananites according to the Bible were subjected to complete ethnic cleansing as per Yawheh's direct instructions. Not only did he/she/it instruct his adherents to destroy without compassion, babies, old women, virgin girls, but later in the Psalms these actions were described as an act of 'loyal love' to God.

  The Caananites just happened to be living on land that the Israelites required and were according to the Bible not very nice people. The precedent was set for the complete and bloody genocide of a nation due to the fact that their behavior upset a Sky God and if 'liebestraum' was the dream of the day.

  Many of us do not believe the Bible because we remember what it contains Snowbird, not because we are ignorant of its contents.

  HS