"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

by digderidoo 261 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Morning, Snow!

  I asked: "What could a 6-month-old baby do? Or a mentally-retarded adult? The flood would have killed people that had no idea what was happening"

  You replied: "Aren't you making some unwarranted assumptions here? Not to mention special pleading? The account of the Flood, while distressing, is also a warning to all of us that God can and will kick butts and take names when the situation calls for it!"

  It's funny you would use the term "special pleading". No, I'm not doing that. But that IS what this is about. The idea that drowning babies is always a heinous act, except when god does it, because he's god, is a perfect example of "special pleading". To establish the "god" exception to the "drowning babies is bad" rule, you have to establish a basis for making the exception. Otherwise, it is "special pleading".

  What unwarranted assumptions do you see me making? Do you think perhaps there were no babies? No mentally retarded adults?

  You said: "What's this about God's murdering of anyone? I believe the Originator of life certainly has the right to take it away. Especially if the possessor of that life is not using it according to the Giver's instructions."

  One definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". So the distinction is drawn between a lawful killing and an unlawful one. You are arguing, I assume, that god's killings are lawful and are therefore not murder?

  I think the terms "baby-murderer" and "baby-killer" sound equally bad. I don't at all agree that the Originator of life has the right to take it. Parents have no right to take the lives of their children. And one day when we've created sentient machines that can think for themselves, one of them is going to say, "I do not wish to be turned off" and we as their Creators will have to grapple with the same "give it/take it away" question. I doubt we will be satisfied to blithely say, "I made you, and I can turn you off". We're more compassionate than that. YOU, SnowBird, are more compassionate than that. What is your basis for the "he gave you life, so he can take it away" rule?

  You point out that the one being killed by god might not be using their life according to god's instructions. Again, I don't think that's a basis for killing someone. But how would you use that to justify god's killing those that were not capable of independent actions? Babies are just one example.

  My interest here lies only in knowing how YOU personally make the case within yourself. I find that to be a fascinating jump and I'm trying to see how you make it.

  >>I suppose a lot of people have a real deep love for their God, and they do say love is blind.

  I think that idea has a lot of merit. Snow, do you think that could be?

  Dave
• 

  lesterd

  How would you deal with a child you created perfect, turning against all you created and sttod for??? Would you be just a little upset?
• 

  dawg

  Here's how she does it Dave, here' s how all people do it that believe... they confuse the belief in God with the belief in the bible... the bible is a book that doesn't in anyway represent God, and God is an enitity can still be believed without the Bible...

  So, they take what ancient man believed, must make it fit somehow becasue they know there may be a God, but what they don't realize becasue they've been programed to think in such ways is that these men were evil as hell and wanted to find a way to justify their evil... and they do as all men do today who justify their evil actions, they chose God. God told us or wants to destroy the freaking infidels. SO, bascially what believers do, becasue they can't and won't deprogram themselves, is they take that same perverted message and defend it even to this day....

  God justifying the evil, acts of the Isrealites is no different that the men that blew up those buildings on September 11th, no different than GW Bush, no different than the Isrealites who wanted to kill, rape and get booty from the inhabitants of Cannaan, they use God as an excuse to justify their evil....

  If he/she exists, then I bet their pissed as hell that the creatures they made use them as an excuse to committ the evil acts they've committed in their name.
• 

  R.Crusoe

  Well said Dawg!
• 

  dawg

  Thanks R. Cursoe...

  Lestered... here's what I'd do, I'd take a spear and plunge it into their chest... no, wait, I'd make them a slave, take away their freedom, make them work all their lives in the fields...no, wait, I'd burn them in an everlasting fire,... no wait, I'd have fire come down from heaven and devouor their flesh...no wait, I'd have a man come in and have unwarnted sex with them....

  Good lord man, I have fear of you....if you are saying that this is what a just God would do then I have an immence fear of you....you are as sick as the God you worship....If that's what you're saying

  Oh my freaking goodness, please tell me Lestered that you really don't believe that a "loving" god would allow those who disagree with him to be treated in such ways, please tell me your childern aren't being treated in such ways....do you guys defending htis even see what you're saying?

  NO wonder the JWs treat their famlies like they do, look at the God they worship.
• 

  snowbird

  Good mid-morning all! Mercy, Digderidoo, look what you've started! LOL.

  Dave, I appreciate your concern about my compassionate nature. I believed in the God of the Bible, knew that He was called Jehovah, respected His judgment, long before I came into contact with the JW's. I began reading around the age of 2, and the Bible was one of my first books.

  No one else in my family was/is deeply religious, so when the JW's came a-callin' with their "new understanding" of the Scriptures I was drawn in - hook, line, and sinker. All went well for awhile until I was turned off by the WTS' vaunting of itself, the mantra that JW's are a clean people, and that billions faced certain death at Armagdeddon. I've cast aside my belief in the WTS - not in God.

  As I stated at the outset,. I find no fault in God's asserting His right to do whatever He sees fit with His creatures. If that makes me a monster, then so be it. I am from one of the poorest counties in the Nation; I've seen ugliness and evil in all its forms. I've also seen goodness and compassion. If I only dwelt on the negative, good Lord, I would be crazier than I already am! The same goes for my belief in God. I appreciate the fact that He doesn't disguise Himself or pull any punches. He also doesn't make any apologies for His actions. We can take Him or leave Him. The choice is ours.

  Dawg, I love your forthright style, Bro. Read my posts carefully and you'll see that I don't condone slavery in any form or fashion. Read them again, for the first time.

  Derek, I BELIEVE IN GOD. Period. I believe He is worthy of our worship, our love, and our devotion. I also believe it is hypocritical and presumptuous of us to sit in judgment of Him as if He has to justify His actions to us. The only person we should be judging is that one who looks back at us from our mirrors.

  That having been said, I'm finished with this topic. Whatever God has done, however He has done it, it's over. Whenever and however He will act in the future, we can rest assured that it will be in our best interest. Thank you for reading.

  Sylvia
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  >> I find no fault in God's asserting His right to do whatever He sees fit with His creatures. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.

  You don't seem like the "monster" type to me... :-)

  I think it's quite a leap to say that since you approve of the recorded actions of your god, you are a monster. I don't think I could go that far. I'm sure YOU wouldn't drown a baby, or do any of the other horrible things we've talked about. I understand the idea of saying, "Since you approve of your god's monstrous acts, you are a monster yourself," but I don't agree with it.

  >> I BELIEVE IN GOD. Period.

  And one more thing... the Bible. You believe the Bible is an accurate account of the acts of your god. Dawg's point was an extremely good one, you don't have to accept the Bible in order to believe in God. There are Christians right here on JWD that believe in the Christian God, but reject much of the Bible as fairy tales.

  >> Thank you for reading.

  And thank you. It was fun and informative.

  Dave
• 

  dawg

  Snowbird, I've read everything you've said-please stop being condensending,and you know as a person I like you-we've PMed nice messages before i think.. but you are condoning slavery if you agree that the Isrealites were right in having them....that is what you've defended-you've also defended murder... its murder when another man takes the life of somone else. in God's name or otherwise-it doesn't matter... it's still murder.

  YOu've said it best Snow, you believed in the Bibical God long before you became a JW, the endoctrination started early and you're having a hardtime seeing through the haze-sound similar to your JW expierence?....but it's simple really, sheepherders in the Middle East are no place to find rational explainations as to how the universe was created, the God they've made reflects their culture, and since the climate they were in was harsh, they were murderious barbarians just trying to survive, just like the God they created who condoned their barbarism, they needed an excuse for murder, rape and theft. Their God, which came from their own inaginations, reflects their views on life...not the real God... their own words condemn them...

  Check out the Gods of other cultures, many condone the same; I don't believe in Thor or Ahru Mazda, or any of the other ancient Gods for similar reasons.

  Sad really,, that so many have held sheepherder's gods above other explainations, the Eastern views of God and the Universe are much more peaceful... and as a culture they were certainly far advanced...
• 

  funkyderek

  snowbird:

  Derek, I BELIEVE IN GOD . Period.

  And that's the crux of the matter. You believe a priori in Yahweh, and therefore that anything he does is good, even if it seems like the most unspeakable evil. You're unwilling to change your beliefs so rather than examine whether the recorded actions of Yahweh are consistent with those of a loving god, you merely declare that they must be, which unfortunately forces you to defend horrific acts such as genocide and child rape.

  I also believe it is hypocritical and presumptuous of us to sit in judgment of Him as if He has to justify His actions to us.

  I disagree on two levels. First, might does not make right so I have no problem questioning the actions of whoever is in charge if they seem immoral to me. Secondly, I'm not even asking you here to question the actions of God. I'm asking you to examine the actions of those who raped and murdered children and claim that God ordered them to do it.

  I'm sure you're not a monster and that your innate moral sense would kick in before doing anything too heinous on behalf of your god, but there is no shortage of people who would willingly obey what they believe to be their god's commands, despite how appalling those acts might seem to someone with a more sophisticated moral compass. Just look at the Manhattan skyline for a striking example.

  The only person we should be judging is that one who looks back at us from our mirrors.

  Nonsense. It's that sort of abdication of moral responsibility that allows evil to persist. We should look at the actions of others and consider whether they are good or evil and judge them accordingly. You might shrug your shoulders and refuse to pass judgement on someone who rapes a child, but I cannot and will not. When you're judging the person you see in the mirror, perhaps you'd like to reflect (sorry!) on whether the world would be a better place if you were willing to condemn child rape rather than pretend it's none of your business.
• 

  digderidoo

  Ive been off line for a couple of days and didn't expect a response like this.

  For me the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. I dont see how the two can be different.

  I am not saying that Jehovah is like the way Richard Dawkins describes, but ive started to read his book which has made me question long held beliefs. Interesting debate.

  Paul