Will this be "the Sign of the Son of Man"?

by a Christian 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Nark,

    I think you know what I meant. "The writer of Daniel claims to have been Daniel himself and he claims several times in his book to have written it [during the reigns of kings whom we today know ruled] in the sixth century BC.

    I appreciate all of which you just wrote. However, the fact remains that "pseudepigraphic literature" is, as its name implies, texts which were written by someone falsely claiming to be someone else. To me that makes the authors of such literature liars and frauds. I do not believe the Bible canon I read from contains such literature. Evidently you believe Daniel to be pseudepigraphic and probably several other Bible books as well. I myself would never bother reading a book claiming to be a work of non-fiction if I believed its author was not being honest about his own identity. If I could not trust him on that how could I believe anything else he wrote?

    I'm sorry to hear you have lost your faith. JW's tend to cause that to happen to a lot of people. I'm sorry if anything I said offended you.

  • NewTruth
    NewTruth

    Hello Michael...

    I just wanted to say, that I think that the sign of the son of man... is the son of man himself.. who will be lifted up in the last days.. and people will either embrace him or reject him... I could back this up with scripture if you would like..... Star

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    I think you know what I meant. "The writer of Daniel claims to have been Daniel himself and he claims several times in his book to have written it [during the reigns of kings whom we today know ruled] in the sixth century BC.

    Sure. I was just pulling your leg. (But even that last sentence which is "true" to me may be construed as an obvious lie by some future reader having lost the sense of figurative speech, just as most of us have lost the sense of ancient pseudepigraphy: Of course I could not have been pulling your leg, then I'm a liar.)

    Evidently you believe Daniel to be pseudepigraphic and probably several other Bible books as well. I myself would never bother reading a book claiming to be a work of non-fiction if I believed its author was not being honest about his own identity. If I could not trust him on that how could I believe anything else he wrote?

    I'd just point out that the categories of "fiction" and "non-fiction" are equally modern and do not apply easily to the literature of Bible times. Let's assume the historical notices in the books of Kings are "non-fiction". Would you readily put the book of Jonah, or the first chapters of Genesis, or the Gospel of John, or Revelation into the same category? There's an infinity of literary genres which the notions of fiction and non-fiction cannot adequately describe.

    I'm sorry to hear you have lost your faith. JW's tend to cause that to happen to a lot of people.

    "Losing my faith" is your way of wording my experience, not mine. For the sake of honesty in communication I said I'm no longer what most people (on this forum, for instance) would call a "believer". As far as I am concerned, though, I can't help reading my path through JWs, Protestantism and beyond as a very consequence of my "faith" -- with its strengths and weaknesses of course...

    I'm sorry if anything I said offended you.

    Don't worry, if I were that easily offended I wouldn't engage in such kind of discussion. I do it more and more rarely, but sometimes I still feel like it, with the dim hope that it might be useful in spite of all the odds against it. This too shall pass I guess.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I agree that this negative evaluation of pseudepigraphy is totally out of keeping with the attitude in Jewish (particularly, Essene) and Christian circles where such works circulated and were written. Just look at the library of scrolls from Qumran, which were bristling with books like Jubilees, 1 Enoch, the Testament of Levi, the Testament of Naphtali, the Vision of Amram, apocryphons attributed to Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Elijah, the Vision of Jacob, the Testament of Kohath, and even more visions of Daniel. So the producers and readers of this literature did not necessarily consider these works frauds or forgeries -- these were indeed accepted as the true and genuine words of these old patriarchs and prophets, although it is certainly possible that some were recognized as first-person fiction and haggada as well.

    If you actually examine them, you can see that they had more nuanced views on the matter. For example, the pseudepigraphal book of 4 Ezra, which depicts itself as written 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC (3:1), portrays the entire Hebrew canon as written by Ezra through divine inspiration. Ezra bemoans the destruction of the original books in Nebuchadnezzar's burning of the city; they do not exist anymore. But God instructs Ezra to begin writing on tablets and "I will light in your heart the lamp of understanding, which shall not be put out until what you are about to write is finished" (14:25). And so Ezra begins writing and through his agency the books of old are rewritten. Ezra ends up producing 94 books, including all 24 books of the Hebrew canon (which curiously anticipates books that had not been written yet), along with 70 books that Ezra is to keep from public circulation -- these latter books are the apocypha and pseudepigrapha that are revealed only to the wise (v. 44-48).

    This describes well how the pseudepigraphal writer viewed himself. He believed he was genuinely restoring or bringing back a book written in the past, revealed to him in a vision or under inspiration (which has an exegetical basis in Isaiah 29:11, 18, 24: "For you every vision has become the words of a sealed book ... the deaf, that day, will hear the words of the book ... erring spirits will learn wisdom and murmurers accept instruction"). It was a common motif in apocalyptic visions that an angel delivers a scroll to the seer, which contains the words that he is to copy down. This motif got its start in Ezekiel, where the prophet was instructed to eat a scroll containing the prophecy (2:1-3:11). Similarly, John relates the unsealing of a great scroll of prophecy in Revelation (ch. 5-8), as well as a small scroll which the prophet eats in a fashion similar to Ezekiel (10:8-11). Hermas, too, is given a "little scroll" in a vision and he "copied it down, letter by letter, for I could not make out the syllables" (Vision 2.5.4), then his copy is snatched away and read back to him in a later vision, wherein it made reference to "the book of Eldad and Modad, who prophesied to the people in the wilderness" (2.7.4). The Epistle of Enoch in 1 Enoch presents itself as a letter written by Enoch, the heavenly scribe, to those of the "latter generation" (92:1). Jubilees describes a dream vision of Jacob, in which an angel descended from heaven with seven tablets with (Enoch's?) prophecy of what would happen in all the ages (32:20-26; compare Enoch's continued writing in paradise in 4:23-24), which he is instructed to copy down. The common view is that what the writer copies is a book that has just become unsealed in the vision for the benefit of the writer (cf. the unsealing of the scrolls in Revelation). A good example of this can be found in the Damascus Document, which claims that there was another sealed book of the Law hidden inside the ark of the covenant (a midrashic interpretation of Deuteronomy 31:26-30) which was unknown to David and not "revealed until the sons of Zadok [i.e. the Essenes] arose" (5:1-6), and this is probably to be identified with the Temple Scroll (11QTemple). The Testament of Moses (= the Assumption of Moses, quoted in Jude) similarly interprets itself as one of the books that Moses deposited in a secret place in earthenware jars, to be revealed when the "day of recompense" draws near (1:16-18). Of course, it is an open question to what extent the authors really believed these rationales and what extent the latter were just literary devices.... did the authors really experience visions when they were writing? I suppose, as in the case of Revelation, that is a subjective question that remains open.

    The pseudonymous character of Daniel should be evaluated by exactly the same criteria (and there are many) that apply to all the other books that share the same characteristics, whether canonical or noncanonical (like 1 Enoch, Jubilees, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, etc.). I would mention in passing that the author gives exactly the same internal plot device as these other pseudepigraphal books for explaining why no one had seen this prophecy of a long-dead prophet before its publication. Daniel is told in 8:26 "to keep the vision secret" and we read in 12:4, 9: "You, Daniel, must keep these words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end...These words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end". Of course, the book of Daniel is now no longer hidden and the author elsewhere indicates in ch. 8, 9, and 11 that he believed that the Maccabean crisis of the 160s BC was the "time of the end". This means that it was around 168-164 BC that the book appeared seemingly out of nowhere and circulated publically among the people. The book itself explains that the reason why no one had earlier seen this work is that it had been "sealed up" and "kept secret" until that time. The very fact that the work was now public indicated to the people that the time of the end was then at hand. Unfortunately, this plain sense of the text is often set aside by those who claim that it is the understanding of the prophecies that is kept sealed until the time of the end (thereby circumventing the difficulty of why the "end" did not come in the second century BC), but that is not what the text says and it misses the parallel of the same plot device used in other apocalyptic works. In fact, it is noteworthy that Revelation reverses this motif; John is instructed to "not seal up the book, for the time is close" (22:10). That is because the book was not pseudonymous but was written by a contemporary prophet for immediate release, for Jesus was "coming quickly" (v. 20).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Leolaia

    Imo searching the minds and souls of the individual "authors" or inner literary production circles is rather moot. Creative religious writing was certainly felt as a work of faith and dedication -- but it was too much work (as the elaborate literary constructions and intertextual references in most cases indicate) for the workers to forget about it and feel it was simply heaven sent, even though they may have ultimately believed that the product of their work of faith was the word of God (and perhaps of the ancient characters the pseudepigraphical plot pointed to).

    Another important yet difficult question is the communication intention of the production circle in relation to the wider reception circle, and the secretive or open nature of their common border. I think it may have varied greatly depending on the nature of the work. Apocalyptical books like Daniel of 1 Enoch were certainly meant to be understood as writings of Daniel and Enoch -- that was essential to their purposed effect. Otoh haggadic tales like the book of Jonah may never have meant to be understood as true stories, although they eventually were -- that would rather spoil their didactic purpose.

    When it comes to Christianity, inasmuch as pseudonymity referred to Christian characters (which is not always the case, since Christian pseudepigraphs, like Jewish ones, are sometimes ascribed to OT or even Gentile characters, e.g. the Sibylline oracles), the effect of antiquity was lost. Paul, Peter, James, John or Thomas were comparatively recent characters, yet authorities within Christian circles. From this perspective I believe Revelation may well have been pseudonymous while reversing the antiquity plot common to its Jewish apocalyptical sources, in view of its short-term expectations.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Okay, so this comet is arriving on Easter Sunday, not Jesus Sunday. Easter is named for Eostre, a German goddess of the dawn, celebrated at the Spring equinox. Next, suppose Eostre originates with ancient Ishtar, a goddess of love, fertility, and war, predating the appearance of Jesus. Wouldn't this comet herald the return of this sexy ancient goddess?

    Or could this comet be the spaceship of the REAL Easter Bunny? Wouldn't that be a nice surprise?

    Sorry to interrupt your serious discussion, but I don't see the date of Easter or that year as being particularly relevant.

    In 1910, many expected Halley's Comet to destroy Earth. Maybe that was the Sign of the Son of Man? => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley%27s_Comet#1910

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Billy,

    As I have pointed out, besides being Easter Sunday (Read that "Resurrection Sunday" since you don't like the word "Easter") April 13th, 2036 will also be the date of Jewish Passover, Nisan 14, the day of Christ's death. In 2036 Passover will begin on the evening of April 12th and end on the evening of April 13th. The following link will verify this fact.

    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:7CDCowJXWFwJ:engert.us/erwin/Bible/Easter%2520Passover.doc+Passover+date+2036&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

    Besides, I have not said that the asteroid Apophis will serve as "the sign of the Son of Man." For the sake of an interesting conversation, I have only said that it might then do so. If after its first appearance on April 13th, 2029 its orbit is slightly altered by earth's gravitational pull and astronomers then predict it will hit the earth when it returns seven years later, with Christ having spoken of 'stars falling from heaven' and Revelation doing the same, you can bet the whole Christian world will then be abuzz with talk of Christ's imminent return.

    The fact that this asteroid will return to earth exactly seven years after its first appearance, and that it will do so on a day which is then widely recognized as being the day of Christ's death, and also then widely celebrated as being the day of his resurrection, will certainly make it a good time to be in the Bible printing business.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos....All very excellent points, which I agree with, especially that we do not have access to the actual intention(s) of the authors (which I clarified as inherently subjective and an open question). My point in framing it that way is that a Christian himself posited one specific intention (i.e. an intent to deceive or lie) and I was trying to demonstrate that other intentions are possible, even probable. Of course, that question is quite apart from describing the literary features of pseudepigraphy and expressed attitudes toward it.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Billy,

    I just read your Halley's comet reference. I saw nothing there that would have given anyone in 1910 the idea that it may have then been "the Sign of the Son of Man."

    For something to serve as a "sign" of someone it must somehow direct people's attention to that someone. A few things about this approaching asteroid will direct people's attention to Christ. First, of course, is the time of its appearance in 2036, on a day that is simultaneously being remembered as the day of Christ's death, and being celebrated as the day of his resurrection. Second is the fact that its appearance in 2036 will come exactly seven years after its first appearance in earth's skies. (Many Christians understand the scriptures to say that a seven year period of tribulation will precede Christ's second coming.) And third is the fact that astronomers now tell us that this asteroid may strike the earth in 2036. (Though they now say the chances of that happening are low, they tell us things could change in 2029 after Apophis first passes through earth's skies, depending on how earth's gravitational pull affects its orbit.) If Apophis does strike the earth in 2036 many Christians will then certainly suspect that it is a biblical "sign" of Christ's impending return, since he spoke of 'stars falling from heaven' before his return and the book of Revelation also speaks of a falling star striking the earth before Christ's return. And finally, for those who understand Daniel's "Seventy Weeks" prophecy in much the way JW's do, 2036 will mark the 2000th anniversary of the culmination of that prophecy's fulfillment.

    How did you like Bethel?

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