President Obama and a Democrat Congress Will....

by owenfieldreams 143 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Hi J-O,

    My concerns are about our country, and the erosion of the middle-class as well as the erosion of civil liberties. As you stated, things are like a pendulum and hopefully they will swing back. A recent poll said 81% of Americans feel this country is on the wrong track. So I am not alone in my concerns.

    While we may have different outlooks on some things, I wholeheartedly endorse what you wrote here:

    I want my taxes to go toward the betterment of the whole country in a well-thought-out balance that includes all our needs, not just the needs of a particular segment.

    Some of my postings on the forum may come across as dyed-in-the-wool liberal (and add in the fact that I recently came out as atheist -- I must really be off my rocker).

    But I am at heart a centrist, or I am really trying to be. I believe that America is like an eagle with two wings -- and it needs both its right and left wing working to fly straight. America has greatly benefited from progressive ideas which got it out of previous centuries' type thinking. However it needs the conservative wing to make sure that the changes the country makes are pragmatic, we can't let government get out of control.

    Since the early 1980's the country has shifted right-ward. During much of that time though, there was a counterbalance between the executive and legislative branches. i.e., one being majority Democratic and the other being majority Republican. However in the early part of this decade both the White House and Congress have been controlled by the right, and we've seen the implementation of many neoconservative ideas.

    IMHO the country moved so far right, that we now need to veer left to get back to the middle. And that's what we're likely to see during this upcoming presidential election.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    IMHO the country swang so far right, that we now need to veer left to get back to the middle. And that's what we're likely to see during this upcoming presidential election.

    No doubt.

    We have a centrist Republican (McCain). A centrist Democrat (Clinton) and a very leftist Democrat (Obama) in the running.

    This country is not turning to the right next term.

    BTS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I like what Jesus said: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Poverty begins between the ears.

    There's an old Jewish refrain that says "Raise a son without teaching him a trade, and you are raising a thief".

    BTS

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I like what Jesus said: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

    What I don't get, is why any self identified "conservative" or Republican would ever have the gall to quote that?

    It's been so VERY long since any Republican made a proposal to "teach a man to fish". Because to do that, you'd have to actually set up a program for for doing just that. OMG! A program? :shock: :horror:

    "Wait a second, you want to do WHAT???? You want to give that poor man a basic, dependable, beginner fishing kit??????????????? Why you lazy teat-sucking socialist! And BAIT? wtf? You want to give this poor destitute person BAIT? Why, my grandfather tied his own flies! I have them in a glass case somewhere, because I'm such a brilliant conservative investor... see, I'm investing by saving the stuff passed on to me by my betters, ancestors... brilliant eh? Oh yeah, back to those poor schmucks who don't know how to fish..."

    "Uh, say now, look'here, if we pass legislation that provides for a tax credit for first time fishermen's gear, I could provide the US Taxpayer with a bang-up fishing kit through my contacts in China. Yeah, maybe we should expand this program. I'll head it up, and it will be an economic boon (to me), we'll keep government small too, so's none a' them nasty ole regulaters come sniffin' around this here bi-partisan good thing I got going on (bipartisan: me and my rich Chinese friends, heh heh).

    "Now then, my little lie-beral friend, you're going to need textbooks to teach, right? Well did I tell you about the textbook company my friend owns?....."

    .....ad infinitum, with lots of complaints about how the government that they have so royally fucked up, is so royally fucked up.

    Conservatives. Even their name implies smallness.


  • journey-on
    journey-on

    I like what Jesus said: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

    What I don't get, is why any self identified "conservative" or Republican would ever have the gall to quote that?

    It's been so VERY long since any Republican made a proposal to "teach a man to fish". Because to do that, you'd have to actually set up a program for for doing just that. OMG! A program? :shock: :horror:

    "Wait a second, you want to do WHAT???? You want to give that poor man a basic, dependable, beginner fishing kit??????????????? Why you lazy teat-sucking socialist! And BAIT? wtf? You want to give this poor destitute person BAIT? Why, my grandfather tied his own flies! I have them in a glass case somewhere, because I'm such a brilliant conservative investor... see, I'm investing by saving the stuff passed on to me by my betters, ancestors... brilliant eh? Oh yeah, back to those poor schmucks who don't know how to fish..."

    "Uh, say now, look'here, if we pass legislation that provides for a tax credit for first time fishermen's gear, I could provide the US Taxpayer with a bang-up fishing kit through my contacts in China. Yeah, maybe we should expand this program. I'll head it up, and it will be an economic boon (to me), we'll keep government small too, so's none a' them nasty ole regulaters come sniffin' around this here bi-partisan good thing I got going on (bipartisan: me and my rich Chinese friends, heh heh).

    "Now then, my little lie-beral friend, you're going to need textbooks to teach, right? Well did I tell you about the textbook company my friend owns?....."

    .....ad infinitum, with lots of complaints about how the government that they have so royally fucked up, is so royally fucked up.

    Spoken like a true ill-informed- foaming-at-the-mouth-seeing-one-side-only mouth-off.

    Even with your elaborate example of dear ole grampa, you still sound like the above description.

    Republicans and conservatives are NOT against programs....they're just against stupidly planned

    ones that never get the job done that just keep going on and on and on with no real qualitative results.

    We HAVE to cooperate to effect real results with some of these "programs", but unfortunately the people

    you have to cooperate with are so (see description above) that they just continue as always, ad infinitum.

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    I promised myself I would not get into these types of discussions.

    I'm going to cut and run on this thread....sorry if that sounds unfair but I don't want to say too much.

    I really do "love" you all....liberals, conservative, Demos, Rep, and those undecided. Different strokes

    for different folks and I don't want ill will to ruin my otherwise beautiful day. .........Journey-on

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Republicans and conservatives are NOT against programs ....they're just against stupidly planned ones that never get the job done that just keep going on and on and on with no real qualitative results.

    Horseshit. If that were true they'd be famous for working to fix programs that don't work as good as they could, and proposing new better programs to solve ever-changing problems.

    Republicans are famous for "heck of a job, Brownie" and the transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the already wealthy.

    The problem isn't "conservativism" per se. It's good to be conservative of things of real, lasting value. The problem is taking a fairly positive concept for ones personal values, "conservativism", and making political ideology out of it. It's a horrible, mean, stupid, opposed-to-expansion-that-benefits-newcomers political ideology.

    It's also antithetical to everything Jesus is written to have stood for.

    It is as popular as it is because it appeals to the lesser angels of the human soul.

    Fortunately, I think even most "conservatives" are growing a bit tired of their own merde and are seeing the value of cleaning up their own house.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    It's also antithetical to everything Jesus is written to have stood for.

    I would really love to see how you weasel that rationale.

    God is a Libertarian. He forces no one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism

    Christian and Libertarian

    Every week, someone asks me what it means to be a Christian Libertarian. Almost as often, I hear from Republicans disgusted with their party's abandonment of its purported principles of small government, social conservatism and adherence to the Constitution, who are nevertheless afraid of switching their allegiance to the godless Libertarians.

    It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. In like manner, a libertarian is a conservative who's been mugged by the government. There is no criminal gang or collection of scam artists who perpetrate even a small fraction of the crimes that the federal government commits and abets – from the forgeries and inflationary confiscations of the U.S. Treasury to the cowardly corruption of the judiciary, from the extra-Constitutional executive orders of the president to the treasonous signings-away of national sovereignty by Congress.

    One need not be an atheist or a devotee of Shub-Niggurath to oppose these things. Indeed, I suspect the problem many Christians and conservative Republicans have with making the leap to Libertarianism is that they still see a connection between the concepts of legality and morality. But there is no inherent relationship between the two; indeed, it is becoming increasingly obvious that it is not possible to honor both in many aspects of American life.

    "It's the law!" is not a moral argument. It is an argument based on the threat of force. Yesterday the law required one to return an escaped slave to his owner; tomorrow it will require one to have an implanted Social Security number when one simply wants to buy Cheerios at the supermarket. The law is not only "an ass," but in a secular society, its moral neutrality is the best for which one can hope. And the law is impossible to obey, even for the most servile citizen – no one truly knows the laws because no one reads them, not even the politicians who pass them!

    Then there are those conservatives who simply do not have a real commitment to individual freedom. They believe that government power is like a light switch, to be switched on to enforce policies they favor – such as banning private development on scenic lands – but switched off in the case of policies they do not. This is optimistic lunacy, since the argument for limited government does not rest upon the notion that the government always does undesirable things, but on the idea that if it can, it eventually will.

    The same government that has the power to ban a private house on the beach also has the power to sell the beach to Wal-Mart or build a nuclear power plant on it. Since the Founding Fathers understood that a Marcus Aurelius was always followed by a Commodus, they tried to construct a system that would prevent either. Good central government, even when it exists, is a short-lived beast.

    And Libertarianism is not inherently godless. In fact, it is the only political philosophy that is truly in accordance with Christianity. The Christian religion posits an all-powerful God who nevertheless permits humanity to turn its back on Him. This shows an extreme respect for free will and for the very sort of individual choice that is banned by Democrats and Republicans alike as they attempt to enforce their will upon the people through the power of government.

    The basic principle of Libertarianism is not anarchic. There are real limits. My free will ends where yours begins. Neither the community nor I have any claim whatsoever on your property or your life, and a libertarian legal system would be structured around that principle. Do not be misled by the false "pro-choice" rhetoric of the infanticidal abortionettes; when one individual decides the fate of another, it is nothing more than the ancient law of tooth and claw. Still, their very terminology is the homage vice pays to virtue.

    And what of the Christian element? Christianity is integral to the philosophy, as without the spiritual core of its demand for free will responsibility, libertarianism has a tendency to devolve into simple utilitarianism, which eventually leads to the very collectivism it was conceived to oppose. The occasional perversions of princes of the various churches notwithstanding, Christianity is timeless and so provides the inexhaustible spring of moral refreshment that is necessary to any political ideology that hopes to resist corruption over time.

    To love Jesus Christ and individual freedom; that is what it means to be a Christian Libertarian.

    BTS

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    "I liked Ron Paul, until I suspected he was an antisemite and a white racist." - BTS

    Not meant as a criticism, just a quick observation. People in the public eye are often branded "anti-semite" when they openly denounce Zionism. One can be (and in my opinion should be) anti-Zionist without being against Jewish people in any way, shape, or form. As for the accusations against Ron Paul, I have no idea.

    Dave

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Six you hit so many nails on the head in that one, you deserve a beer. And it was good sarcastic fun to boot.

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