Min,
Be careful, I would hate to see you get hurt.
Carlos,
You get a grip, and listen and learn:
&feature=relatedJK
Suggestions for JW Girlfriend?
by Mincan 87 Replies latest jw friends
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smellsgood
Well, how does it feel losing your virginity while intoxicated? Do you remember it?
I would really not mess around too much with hooking up with drunk girls.
Hopefully she wasn't incapacitated...if she was high and drunk, its very likely this will be something regretful for her. Maybe for you as well, although you seemed keen to get rid of it already and have it done with.
You live in Canada, I know there are laws in many states in America where a girl can call rape if she's had ONE drink, and a guy has sex with her.
At least my brother who's in the military gets lectured apparently nearly every weekend before they're allowed free time; they are told that if they are to have sex with a girl who has had only ONE drink, they can be prosecuted for rape. Don't know what its like in Canada.
Besides, if you didn't use protection,,,,and then she didn't take emergency contraceptives such as plan B with 72 hours, there is a possibility that she could get pregnant. Yes, pregnancy can happen in one go.
Be careful, I think you're playing with fire.
Well done on ceasing any further interactions of that nature
until you have other things sorted out. -
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Mincan
yOU ARE DEFINITELY PLAYING WITH fire here. Having anything to do with Witnesses in any setting is bound to bring you grief. I was in a very similar situation, a JW girl living a double life as I was out of it for two years when I met her in a college class. I didn't find out untill the end of our first date that she was a Witness. The whole thing ended in tears. She coerced me to "come back," and after I did, very reluctantly, I was disfellowshipped effectively ending our r4elationship because she waas not disfellowshipped and she coulde not associate with her fiance at that point. Fore warned is fore armed. Be careful dude.
I’m never heading back to the witnesses, they have no power over me in any way. Thus this perspective is flawed.
Mincan, I can't read in your text if she did use drugs or not. You said in one of your replies that she "used mind-altering substances" and hence I assume she did smoke some weed too. I feel that she is on her way out.
She did use alcohol that first night we reunited (I never got drunk that night myself)... but after that we have only smoked cannabis on two occasions together. When we had sex we did not use alcohol. We did use cannabis some on that night though, but also had a lot of sober sex as people here are referring to it.
I mean no believer of the Christian God and the JW-system do drugs and have sex like that. She's definitely on her way out, however, watch out for being used as the exit door. I have been used in two different ways in two different relationships and I'm not saying that all women are bad, I think that a lot of men are using women for the very same reasons. But this is my main point also, people use each other for more or less subtle reasons! So take note of momzcrazy: "Sounds like she is using you as a means to rebel. You've known each other a long time, so there is a sense of security for her." You had knew her for a long time but it wasn't until recently she almost pulled you away for a cup of coffee and then later on did drugs and had sex with you? It sure sounds like you've been fished. So my conclusion is that she is definitely on her way out from the religion and that if you do have feelings for one another, the future might very well be bright for you, but watch out my friend. Some scorpions are dressed as puppies.
Your point is well taken, she may indeed be well on the way out. She seems to have no guilt despite saying she loves Jehovah. When I talked to her later tonight, she said she didn’t have expectations she is just having fun. I think that’s all that’s important to her right now if she said this. She was a 23 year old virgin whose been in a cult all her life. I was a 20 year old virgin when I left and having some fun was important to me, this has been my first opportunity to have a sexual relationship since I’ve decided to leave.
mincan....you look like the guy who sings "tainted love".....
NINJA: Checked that out and have to say I understand where you are coming from but it’s obvious you need to see more pictures of me before making that conclusion.
Mincan,
Here is my suggestion, you're a young man, she's a young woman, enjoy having sex, use each other to get really good at it, have a loose, care-free relationship, nothing too serious. Sex is a great thing.BLUEBREAKER: This would be fine with me if we both agree to it. I do not want to lead on and neither does she it seems from our conversation tonight.
Minan[sic],
Son you better be using something to prevent pregnancy, you are asking for serious trouble getting this girl pregnant and possible hellish experience if she takes you kid and goes back into the cult. This girl is going through a transition and is going to be messed up and you will be used as tool to her exiting the JW's. Are you sure your up to dealing with the whole cult thing to help her leave, it is exhausting and a strain on anyone caught up in it. The girl need to get out but she is going about it the wrong way.
Ruth
Thank you RUTH, no need to worry about pregnancy prevention in our situation.You are playing with fire here, Mincan. I find it funny that you lost your virginity to a double-dub. I'm sure it was great.
My suggestion would be to run the other way. Find a nice worldly girl and always, always use protection.
BFD
BFD: The full irony of that didn’t hit me until a week into it, and it was a slightly “spiritual experience” I have to say! Haha.
It does sound like I’ve been “fished”, especially since after talking to her she seems eager to “just ride the wave” (her words) “just have no expectations” and just “keep hanging out”. If this is all she wants and she is fine with nothing more, than it sounds like we will have a chance to keep going for it... see if it works out, but as I said I doubt it we are very different people in many respects and I don’t feel at all compatible with her right now, and I’m not sure I will later on.Mincan, you seem like a nice guy although rather irresponsible sometimes. I'd like to say a couple of things. The first is, you want to get laid and so does she, so in my opinion, as long as you act responsibly (condoms, make sure she's sober when you have sex), it ain't nobody's business but your own.
HORTENSIA: Agreed.
What concerns me is the alcohol - she had to get high to initiate sex. So she's lying to herself - she can always say she was drunk and isn't responsible.
HORTENSIA: We did not have sex while using alcohol, that was the night before, which was the first night we met. I was not drunk that night and also there was her brother and cousin present with us, that was more of a group thing.
So the real issue is communication communication communication.
HORTENSIA: Always is. Regardless of whether we used alcohol or not.
When you are both sober, ask her where this is going. If she doesn't know, then make an agreement with her that for the present it's just about fun and no one has any obligations. If either of you wants to change that agreement you agree to discuss it and not put pressure on the other person to agree to a relationship the person doesn't really want.
HORTENSIA: I found this interesting because that is what happened later on today. We both made an “agreement” that there are no expectations other than mutual enjoyment of each other’s company. She said she is “not worried about the future, just wants to have fun now.”
HOWEVER, if you all get pregnant, all bets are off. You are responsible for the kid for the next 20 years. So think about that seriously.
HORTENSIA: No worries here guys really. I have OCD and not having kids when not ready for them (aka wearing a condom, etc) is not something that’s going to be low on my OCD radar.
It's not up to me to excuse you.You're an adult man, right? She was an impaired, vulnerable woman. I don't give a good GD if you WERE virgins (that can never be said again, right?) or it happened once or 1000 times. YOU just changed her life...and it wasn't in a positive way. Quit making excuses, be a man and take some responsibility.
Carlos
CARLOS: I have no internal need to be excused here. I am completely confident in my intentions and purposes. I’ve made my overture especially clear today as has she. My purpose with this thread was to ask those here to give me suggestions on how to go about getting her out of what I consider a mind-controlling religious sect/cult with (hopefully) tact and grace and dignity to her.
So according to your logic, people are essentially evil and to be avoided, as most people are simply out to change us in a negative way? I see why you lean towards the belief structures you have chosen, being someone prone to paranoia myself.
The fact that I have written this thread with my stated purpose in mind (and not yours) displays some sense of taking responsibility does it not? What in your mind would I do differently if I had good intentions? Am I not doing that right now?You're reading too much into it Carlos, you're making assumptions and looking like an ass. Do yourself a favour and shut up.
Kwin
KWIN: ThanksBFD...I believe I'm the only one here who has a grip. I don't care if they're "consenting adults" or not. If you take advantage of someone who is weak (whatever the reason), you are in some nasty company.
LOL...sometimes I wonder if many x-jw-ites really learned much from their experience on the inside. Everyone proudly proclaims their "victimhood" readily enough; but when someone is victimized on the outside, it's no big deal. Well...I suppose we'd have to say that all the x-jws here were "consenting adults" and nobody has anything to whine about.
Carlos
CARLOS: By your logic, we are all weak because we are always just fucked up creatures looking for some personal peace of mind. Hence my thread. Obviously for me to have peace of mind I want her to understand my position, how I truly feel about her, and of course to help her leave the witnesses if that’s what she wants. If she does not want to leave the witnesses, then our relationship on an intimate level cannot continue. I have made this clear to her and she agrees with that. Thus your point about attacking the weak on my part cannot be true because everyone can’t be weak and trying to attack other weak people or is this what you are suggesting? Your world view is very bleak indeed.
As far as accusations of victimisation, you really cannot make that call without getting both sides of view and since thats not going to happen, and for the purposes and structure of this thread and this forum, I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic I came here to discuss, mmkay?MINCAN- Hey guy- you are a good friend to me and my wife- and we to you as well. You and your new girlfriend are young , just getting newly sexually experienced. Whether or not you will be with this young woman 10 years from now is a unknown thing. In our early 20's our future is all before us - and if your like some of us ( myself included) you may by the time you are in your late 40's go through several relationships before you find the RIGHT woman for you ! So , since it's a new relationship - I wouldn't sweat it too much.
MR.FLIPPER: Thanks for the reassurance. I just don’t think it will continue much beyond a physical at this point. As you’ve said we don’t seem to be on a similar plane psychologically or spiritually, as for the others I cannot presume to know at this point. As far as the books, I really don’t like to push her on leaving the witnesses, I really think people need to make that choice themselves, but I also believe she wont be given a proper opportunity to objectively look at both sides unless someone gives her the other story... so I will probably suggest those books shortly in the future if I see her going in this direction.You both are young and have plenty of time to really get to know each other - if that's what you and her BOTH want. In time you will see if it's just a friends with benefits relationship- or if you guys are on the same similar plane as regards mental, emotional, psychological, physical, and spiritual issues. As some have said , ( especially OTWO ) I would encourage her to read " Crisis of Conscience" by Ray Franz, and "Combatting Cult Mind Control " by Steve Hassan, as it will help open her mind up to how she really has been controlled by the Jehovah's Witnesses. And as you both have a chance to see where each other are coming from on the " Witnesses " issue - then in time you both will know if you want to keep pursuing each other. But remember : Communication is the key ! Keep talking about everything. Good luck friend. Feel free to call me or wifey if you want to talk. Mrs. Flipper can give you a woman's perspective- but I can give you " the guy " thing you may need. We are proud of you. Peace out buddy, Mr. Flipper
Communication is key to me... I’m a very open person. One need only look at the threads I have started here to see I’m pretty damn open about most aspects of myself with complete strangers. You guys are a great perspective every time and I enjoy hearing it too!I've met, Mincan, and to suggest his motive is to take advantage of her is erroneous at best. She is lucky to have a freind in Mincan.
BFD
Thank you BFD, I’m flattered.Lif eis for living, live it. So you might get hurt, she might get hurt. or you might fall in love and live happily ever after. Who knows. Enjoy the ride!
APHRODITE: Intuitively I want to agree with you. I just want to enjoy the ride myself by helping someone get out of what I consider harmful to any human’s psychological well being, then I will be able to connect more deeply with her. She’s in a very small mental box right now and I have high stimulation needs.
They know each other, have for a long time. I do feel she may be using him in her rebellion. I am the mom of two girls and I am, as of the moment, thinking Min is the one who is being used.
I hope that when my girls are adults I have taught them to be responsible. What their decisions are is up to them, but I will be there when they fail. And they will fail. It's the rule of life.
momz
MOMZ: I don’t really think either of us is using the other in any negative way... at least not anymore that we’ve both agreed to what the relationship is and what it’s going to be. If anything we are mutually enjoying it. I just want to know how to help her escape the witnesses as previous lines of though in this thread have discussed I do think she wants to get out by her actions and statements but she needs help and she still feels a loyalty to the Jehovah character from the Watchtower pantheon.Min,
Be careful, I would hate to see you get hurt.
Carlos,
You get a grip, and listen and learn:
&feature=related
JK
JK: Thank you my friend. I will try to be careful.Alcohol loosens inhibitions and people do things they wouldn't do when sober. If Mincan wants a good relationship, he and she ought to see how it is without alcohol.
HORTENSIA: No worries, she hasn’t been drunk around me since that first night, nor I her, ever. (I do smoke weed, and quite regularly at that when I can get away with it and/or it is beneficial to me, yes, but I rarely drink alcohol, I don’t particular enjoy the effects (as my central nervous system (frontal lobes particularly) is already chronically depressed in a neuronal fashion) nor do I enjoy the hangover.)
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OnTheWayOut
People here are asked for suggestions, which also invites opinions.
When asking for help, it really sucks to get replies like the following
(no matter how the opinion was stated):im going to have to call you out on your ignorance on this one
Thus this perspective is flawed.
You also seem inconsistent. A quote from page 1:
We had sex only once... and I've not allowed us to have it again until this is all cleared up.
Now a quote from page 2:
She did use alcohol that first night we reunited (I never got drunk that night myself)... but after that we have only smoked cannabis on two occasions together. When we had sex we did not use alcohol. We did use cannabis some on that night though, but also had a lot of sober sex as people here are referring to it.
So, you did not have sex when either of you was drinking because you only had sex once,
but it was sober sex. Also, you were high on cannabis when you had sex that one time.
You had a lot of sober sex that one time, so you are a superman. (Great to be young, eh)
It's possible, but even giving you the benefit of the doubt, her being high is just as bad as
her being drunk. If it was rohypnol, you would easier see my point.I see your youthful point of view in all of this. You were both virginal and felt the need to
do the deed, overdue. Regardless of our current morals, we need to look at this from that
point of view- were we ever there? I know I was. You don't think a little weed is really
taking advantage of the other person. She's technically an adult, so it's up to her what she
should do. But be the better person. Don't confirm her thoughts that "worldly" is terrible and
takes advantage of "naive."Try to be kinder in your responses instead of being such a shithead. Instead of telling us about
our ignorance or flawed logic, just say "I don't think that applies because..." or some other
nicer words that would make us want to continue offering our suggestions. -
hillbilly
I dont know Mincan... but he posts like most of the under 25 group I deal with daily.
Lot's of rationalisation for bad behavior and I never screw up....of course, how could it be bad..everyone else it telling me its ok...and morals and self-control are so yesterday...........
Kids... let em dig their own hole.
Hill
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kwintestal
I dont know Mincan... but he posts like most of the under 25 group I deal with daily.
Lot's of rationalisation for bad behavior and I never screw up....of course, how could it be bad..everyone else it telling me its ok...and morals and self-control are so yesterday...........
Kids... let em dig their own hole.
Hill
Funny, because I know quite a few over 45 like this too. Ever been to a cougar bar?
Darned old horney people, drinking and humping, and forgetting what mamma and pappa told them 30 years before. As I recall reading (but can't remember where) the largest % increase in STD's for the past 10 years are in the over 50 crowd.
You want to live like a prude, fine but don't try putting your moral compass on someone else.
Kwin