Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Slappy

  Even for those that cling to the Bible, they recognize that it can be used to say anything.

  The only way that can be accomplished is by playing Bible hopscotch. When taken in context, not only of that particular portion, but also of the character of God and the purpose of the Bible, it is quite clear that some things are wrong. However, many 'false teachers' very much like to take things out of context to support a particular viewpoint of theirs, and then various people who don't believe in the Bible point to them and say just what you said.

  Sex, with someone other than your wife, is wrong. Reinna made it quite clear that not only is it wrong Biblically, but also in relation to society and the lives of those around you. I, too, have come to the same conclusion about sex. I first didn't engage in such a willful activity because God said "No", but as I began to question why God tells me to not do certain things, through His Word, I have gained an understanding that I'm not to do them because they are harmful, not only to myself, but to those around me. As for the rest of the points (Christmas, gambling, voting, etc...), Romans 14, as has been quoted several times already is very true. Also, there is a verse (I think it's in the last 4 verses of 1 Cor 10) where Paul asks, "Why am I evil spoken of for that which I give thanks?".

  As another poster said, IT is a personal relationship with Christ and just like any true relationship, we do things not because we're supposed to, but because we want to and because we want to make our counterpart in that relationship happy.
• 

  funkyderek

  Slappy:

  Sex, with someone other than your wife, is wrong.

  Not according to the Bible. Sex with someone else's wife is considered wrong, but otherwise, it seems, anything goes.
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  AK - Jeff

  R

  This is a nice thought-provoking discussion. I am glad you started this thread.

  I think though, that honestly, until one eliminates the Jw perspective from his viewpoint, he can not truly understand what the Bible says. Why do I say so?

  The Bible contains multiplistic views of much of what Jw's claim is 'Biblical principle'.

  • Throughout the OT the 'men of old' freely engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital sex. Then along comes Jesus and condemns sex outside a single partner.
  • The OT presents God as a vindictive God that kills hundreds of millions in 'righteous warfare'. The bigger than life heroes of the Bible are all bloody. David was 'loved by Jehovah' for his killing of tens of thousands. Then Jesus comes along and tells us to 'turn the other cheek', to 'love our neighbors', and to treat the fallen in charitable ways.
  • Paul tells us to 'let no man judge you in observance of a festival'. Yet Jw's teach us that we should avoid birthdays, holidays.
  • The Israelites were extremely political, and the Jews of Jesus' day were looking for relief from the Romans through a 'messiah' of deliverance. The Christians that accepted him wanted the same. They were not, and did not, bow to the oppression that comes from political states without any effort to improve the political climate for themselves.

  So which ones should be adopted? And why would a book of such great contrasting 'principle' be able to ever give us clear direction for life?

  Now - before I get accused of using my 'freedom' from Jw's [in fact from Christianity nowadays] to excuse my blatant immoral conduct by finding loopholes in Biblical morality, let me tell you that is not true. I do not fornicate. I do not kill. I love my neighbors. I show deep respect for others. I am kind. All Christians are welcome in my home under the same basis as all 'Pagans'. If they respect me, I respect them.

  None of that is really a carry over from Jw's. I am just that way. Perhaps it is genetic. Why do I not go out and take advantage of my freedom? Because my moral character originates inside myself. It is not from outside, from some written dictum. Such dictums seem to shift in the wind, depending on who interprets them anyway. My values are not derived from a book. especially such a contradictory one.

  Jw's believe that I am a blood-drinking, idol worshipping, fornicating, Bible burning, lunatic. I am not. Yet they wish to label me as such because it legitimizes their hatred for me for daring to leave their religion.

  I have known hundreds of fornicating Jw's over my lifetime. Many of them worship their mates, their cars, their houses, or themselves. Many of them spend less time reading the Bible than my Catholic neighbors do. They have quiet Thanksgiving Dinners or make sure that presents for the kids are given around certain holidays, conveniently. They drink more than my Muslim neighbors. They watch entertainment that my Amish neighbors would cringe over seeing. The divorce rate in the local congregation seems to be quite high. Must be some fornication going on in that nice Bible believing bunch over there. Since I left the organization, I know of 4 couples in the local that were divorced and remarried. I did not. After 34 years of marriage, we stick together better than about 90% of Jw's that I know.

  The Jw's are just human. They don't use Bible principles anymore than I do. They just claim they do.

  Jeff
• 

  watson

  An excellent, civil discussion. Refreshing.
• 

  snowbird

  I believe in the God of the Bible; that's why I left the JW's.

  Sylvia
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  reniaa

  hi sacolta, hmmm interesting scripture but you must have known I would look at it in context, while i agree in principle on face of it it's not to judge each other but is it doing all you claim?

  Colossians 2:16-17

  16 therefore Do Not Let Anyone Judge You By What You Eat Or Drink, Or With Regard To A Religious Festival, A New Moon Celebration Or A Sabbath Day. 17 these Are A Shadow Of The Things That Were To Come; The Reality, However, Is Found In Christ.

  t matters not what we eat or drink or what festivals we participate. Let no one judge us concerning these matters.

  Here is an example from the very next chapter in the same letter were paul is then telling us to teach and admonish each other, surely there is a conflict if this first part means we as christians can do anything as long as it is in christs name, the principles against new year christmas and such-like isn't so much that they are festivals but what they are in practise. If you stick a label on a lump of cheese declaring it is actually eggs, it doesn't make it eggs it's still cheese! in fact it will revert back to cheese too because if it is a christian celebration it would stay that way but if it is pagan it will go back to it's pagan roots in it's expression, so when you look in how christmas is expressed worldwide now, is it seen as a christian festival or a santa claus one? how many people still goto mass at christmas? but you can pretty much apply this principle to any made-over festival/holiday.

  15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
  

  Rules for Christian Households

  18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

  19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

  20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

  21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

  It's mentioned that only the jews needed laws etc as christians we don't, but does that mean we can now do all that was once biblically condemned when the jews did it as we are christians so it's no longer a sin? or is it that as christians it is assumed we have the insight as followers of jesus to see the inate wrongdoing in a practise so avoid it naturally?

  I didn't need Jw's to show me smoking was wrong or drugs but also looking at porn on internet or gambling or politics for that matter, if i'm looking to jesus why would i need to get mired in thoughts of leaders and voting?

  so which is it? the belief in jesus is enough so wrongdoing is no longer wrongdoing?

  or we should still try and live applying biblical principles against all our actions, which would lead to a very strict lifestyle and make any fundamental christian group happy.

  or a third option perhaps?
• 

  insearchoftruth

  Reniaa,

  Using your logic about reverting back to pagan roots then counteracts why a JW can go on a honeymoon, wear a wedding band and the like, the PO, sorry CBOE of the congo where my wife is attending occasionally said that these things are ok because the meaning is now beyond the pagan origin, so which way is it??

  ISOT
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  daniel-p

  The inconsistency of how the JWs interpret scripture is not unique to them. Every believer interprets the Bible according to their own life's needs.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Here is an example from the very next chapter in the same letter were paul is then telling us to teach and admonish each other, surely there is a conflict if this first part means we as christians can do anything as long as it is in christs name, the principles against new year christmas and such-like isn't so much that they are festivals but what they are in practise. If you stick a label on a lump of cheese declaring it is actually eggs, it doesn't make it eggs it's still cheese! in fact it will revert back to cheese too because if it is a christian celebration it would stay that way but if it is pagan it will go back to it's pagan roots in it's expression, so when you look in how christmas is expressed worldwide now, is it seen as a christian festival or a santa claus one? how many people still goto mass at christmas? but you can pretty much apply this principle to any made-over festival/holiday.

  Reniaa,

  A festival called Christmas came on the scene to REPLACE a pagan festival called Saturnalia. I am sure you know that. A battle between evil and good. Who won out? Do you know anyone today who celebrates Saturnalia? I do not. Your illustration of tangible property to a matter that Paul in Romans describes as up to one's conscience simply is a very poor illustration. It is comparing apples and oranges. A better example may be...if a gangmember is to construct a building and use it to conduct his business...and the building is later sold...(legal technicalities aside here as I am not a lawyer familiar with such)....would the new owner be guilty of being a gangbanger...since he is in a place that had its origin or beginning as such? Or would his use of the building be the determining factor of whether he is committing a wrong?
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  insearchoftruth

  The Bible provides some wonderful guidance, when read as a novel, in context, but as the other posters have stated, by jumping around, one can make it say and support everything that one would want it to support.......

  Read the Bible for what it is, what gets me is when a religious organization continues to create its own interpretations of what the good book is supposed to be stating, continually changes these interpretations, and then will admonish the followers who either want to cling to the old beliefs or do not want to accept each and every doctrine/policy/rule.

  The OT God was one of anger and was quite vengeful, the the God of the New Testament is truly a God of forgiveness. We are all sinners, we all fall short of the Glory of God, but it is through our faith that we are saved....it is an undeserved GIFT, not at all related to works.