jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    reniaa

    how many times does the bible put jesus at Gods right hand? well these are just a few and they all keep God and Jesus completely separate so by the arguments that if two are in different position then God and jesus are not the same.

    There you go with your strawman again, no one is saying the Father and the Son are the same. We all believe they are separate persons

    I'm still waiting for you to help us understand what came down from heaven.

    reniaa
    Actually deputy your life was saved by a man! anything more would not have meant an equality with adam who was just a man that sinned.
    Really? So what exactly came down? A spirit? I'm not making this up. Jesus said he came down from heaven, I didn't.
    You say jesus is simply an angel but how do you define an angel if you read my post the word angel just means messenger and does not describe fully the spiritual beings that are angels,

    I didn't say he was "simply an angel". I'm just asking.

    ...remember I think jesus is an archangel so there is a difference.

    So tell me what you think the difference is.

    Are you saying that unless God died for you the sacrifice is not worthy of you? to be despised?

    I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just asking questions. The main one being "what came down from heaven?" Maybe I'm a little slow but so far, I don't think you've answered it yet.

    the word angel just means messenger and does not describe fully the spiritual beings that are angels,

    Could you describe a little more fully, the nature of angels?

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    And in conclusion.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38V8jnN1Kpw&feature=related

    StAnn, Trinitarian and Proud of It!

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Sorry Joseph...very weak argument there. He is described as 'sat' in verse 11 and verse 19. You are trying to chop this up the same way the WT chops up verses to support their own doctrine. Perhaps a reading comprehension class would be helpful for you rather than the one in eisogesis you seem to have taken.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Deputy,

    Your asking the tough question that most , all seasoned JWs and anti trinitians can never answer. "What came down from heaven?" Ah yes the hoop jumping begins.

    Joseph....Ever find out why Yahweh shares his glory? Which in turn contradicts "thus saith the LORD" You certainly recall that hoop jumping fest from a couple of years ago.

    Quote of the day " I know thats what is says, but thats not what it says"

  • isaacaustin
  • isaacaustin
  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    why do I keep getting an eror messing in trying to post here???

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Great points above.
    Heb 1:3 “He is the reflection of [his] glory…"
    Hmm, who does God share his glory with??
    Isaiah 42:8"I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.”
    Isaiah 48:11 “For my own sake, for my own sake I shall act, for how could one let oneself be profaned? And to no one else shall I give my own glory.”
    Pretty clear cut here…a quote from God himself that he shares his glory with no one… Isaiah got to see this glory…
    Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uz•zi´ah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings. With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about. 3 And this one called to that one and said: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds began to quiver at the voice of the one calling, and the house itself gradually filled with smoke.
    5 And I proceeded to say: “Woe to me! For I am as good as brought to silence, because a man unclean in lips I am, and in among a people unclean in lips I am dwelling; for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”
    6 At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. 7 And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: “Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.”
    8 And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I proceeded to say: “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”

    Ok so Isaiah saw Jehovah’s glory. John speaks of this in ch 12….

    36 ..Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37 But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38 so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” 39 The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God.
    This is referring to Jesus…verse 36 makes that clear. And John says Isaiah saw Jesus glory. Did he see two separate glories? OR did he see one glory that is one with the persons who posses the same Godly nature and are by nature God? Remember isaih showed that God shares his glory with no one else. So if Jesus was not God by nature this would mean that he lied. If we recognize that Jesus is of the same nature as his Father there is no problem here.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Heb 1:3 “He is the reflection of [his] glory…"
    Hmm, who does God share his glory with??

    Issacaustin,

    Look up the words in Hebrews 1:3 and finish the verse. What will you find now? Someone that had the same confidence in the results [person] (hypostasis) that the Father had and we should have as well. Look up <5287> and the verses in which it is used. This will clarify such translation for you.

    Joseph

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Joseph, can you elaborate a bit on your previous comment and the Greek word transalted 'person'?

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