jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    reniaa

    Actually deputy your life was saved by a man! anything more would not have meant an equality with adam who was just a man that sinned.

    Really? So what exactly came down? A spirit? I'm not making this up. Jesus said he came down from heaven, I didn't.

    You say jesus is simply an angel but how do you define an angel if you read my post the word angel just means messenger and does not describe fully the spiritual beings that are angels,

    I didn't say he was "simply an angel". I'm just asking.

    ...remember I think jesus is an archangel so there is a difference.

    So tell me what you think the difference is.

    Are you saying that unless God died for you the sacrifice is not worthy of you? to be despised?

    I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just asking questions. The main one being "what came down from heaven?" Maybe I'm a little slow but so far, I don't think you've answered it yet.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    reniaa

    the word angel just means messenger and does not describe fully the spiritual beings that are angels,

    Could you describe a little more fully, the nature of angels?

  • barry
    barry

    Arianism is a beleif from the 4th century by a priest of Alexandria named Arius who first made the claim that Jesus was a created being. So Arianism in the history of the christian church is a Johnny come lately.

    The Adventists in the 19th century also were for the most part Arian. The new church being made up of members from the christian connection. The Adventists smartened up their beleifs about 1900 and accepted the trinity doctrine with some members being left behind and still holding to Arianism.

    As a result the beleif that Jesus is Michael the Archangel was retained but Adventists understand it is a title as God is head of the anglels.

    Renaii there is nothing original about the WT beleifs.

  • Slappy
    Slappy
    Are you saying that unless God died for you the sacrifice is not worthy of you? to be despised

    Not at all. Again you don't understand the reason for Christ's sacrifice. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is worthy of me, but that it satisfies God's righteous call for judgment. Nothing LESS THAN PERFECTION could satisfy that call. God alone is perfect.

    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 3:3

    It was not the physical (fleshly) death on the cross that was the sacrifice, but those 3 hours of darkness that was the real sacrifice. While the above portion is in reference to the Galatians trying to attain salvation through the law (flesh), the idea of trying to gain salvation through the flesh, is denied on any level. Fleshly sacrifices did not please God:

    For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
    Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

    Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure. Hebrews 10:4-6

    Since such sacrifice could not please God nor satisfy that righteous call for justice, Christ, God's Son (who always was/is/will be; never created = no beginning or end) offered to be a sacrifice for many:

    Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’” Hebrews 10:7
    And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14

    Furthermore, there were countless prophets that had the Spirit of God (else, how could they perform those miracles that they did?), but they were not perfect and holy for a sacrifice of such magnitude. It had nothing to do with desire, for I have no doubt that most, if not all, of the OT prophets would have offered themselves as a sacrifice to save the souls of many. Even looking at John the Baptist:

    He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. Luke 1:15 (last part)

    If anybody was capable of being such a sacrifice, surely it would John? And yet no, for John, even though he was filled with the Spirit from birth, was not BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Only Jesus can claim that.

    Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
    And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35

    And being born of God, He was God, for only God can beget God. Remember, God alone is refered to as 'Holy One' (this is seen throughout the OT), yet Jesus was also called 'Holy One'.

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    Think about this, how does Christ dying for us allow God to demonstrate His own love toward us?

    slappy

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    From Alberta's comment it seems that Jehovah has made him better than the angels, but in what way? Jesus suffered as an ordinary man then he was killed. He willing laid down his life in obedience to Jehovah. This act of love separated Jesus from the rest of his angelic brothers. He showed the entire universe that his love and loyalty is with his Father and in turn Jehovah has exalted him to the top position. Now there is know doubt in anyone's mind that Jesus loves Jehovah. Angels will never achieve what Jesus has achieved because they will never suffer as men suffer. So in conclusion our Lord and Savior Jesus is a mighty spirit person who is now above the angels in authority and righteousness. However a spirit person is still a son of God and a angel.

  • Slappy
    Slappy
    This act of love separated Jesus from the rest of his angelic brothers. He showed the entire universe that his love and loyalty is with his Father and in turn Jehovah has exalted him to the top position. Now there is know doubt in anyone's mind that Jesus loves Jehovah. Angels will never achieve what Jesus has achieved because they will never suffer as men suffer. So in conclusion our Lord and Savior Jesus is a mighty spirit person who is now above the angels in authority and righteousness.

    Unbaptized, please read the following scripture, and NOT from the NWT.

    God’s Supreme Revelation 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. The Son Exalted Above Angels For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Heb 1:1-14

    The Bible itself just completely debunked everything you just said. Do you even read the Bible? Or do you let some other 'men' tell you what it says? Strike out on your own, get a feel for things, and don't regurgitate nonsense that you haven't at least tried to confirm on your own. Don't do this for me, or anybody else for that matter, do it for yourself. The results will be incredible.

    slappy

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True

    an angel standing

    IssacAustin,

    Great job, really enjoyed your evidence. Fantastic work. But it just so happens that the angel standing in the vision was also sitting in that vision just like in the other vision where he sat and on a horse.

    him that sat on the horse

    You must have missed that even though I highlighted it, but there goes your evidence. Wonder how many others noticed it.

    Joseph

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    ??????

    yeah..............not getting it............

    Ok, here's what you said:

    19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Is not the same person seen again in this vision that followed that one:

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Anyone that can read should at least be able to see that much.

    Joseph

    First off, by virtue of "...in this vision that followed that one..." you're claiming that the two visions are separate visions. This is not the case. There is absolutely no support for that statement. Why do you insist on twisting it? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

    The one sitting on the horse in the first paragraph is called "Faithful and True" and is "The Word of God". You've highlighted these instances in the first paragraph to show the connection, and I agree. However, you make a blatant attempt at deception in the second paragraph. First by stating that it is a separate vision from the first paragraph, WHICH IT ISN'T! You then highlight "...an angel..." and "...him that sat on the horse, and against his army..." as if to show that the angel is the one that sat on the horse. Why do attempt to twist what is holy and true to suit your ulterior motives?

    I'm sorry Joseph, any respect that I may have once held for you is now non-existent. Blatant manipulation is pathetic.

    slappy

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    And how do you reach the conclusion that they are NOT that same vision?

    Slappy,

    Maybe because I know how to read? Or maybe I recognized the expression "And I saw" separated them individually and that there were actually three and not just two visions in the quoted material. I combined the second and third ones. But the main character in all three was the same, just viewed from different perspectives. Revelation was written like that and our Lord taught like that during His ministry. Notice this same use in other chapters as well. Am I the only one that noticed this?

    Joseph

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Aarrrggghh! I just logged on and can't believe this thread is on page 17!

    I've got blood streaming from my eyes!

    Reniaa, I've got a suggestion I think is pretty good:

    Why don't you give up the whole WTS crap and just go become a Bible Student? At least you'd be part of the core group and not the splinter group, which is what the JDubs are. And you wouldn't have to worry about shunning.

    And I'm Catholic and have no problems with Enoch. Please don't tell me what Catholics believe, as your understanding of the Trinity shows you haven't got a clue.

    Serena (StAnn)

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