jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Slappy

  For ? z ?the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with ? a ?the trumpet of God. z [ Matt. 24:30 , 31 ] a [ 1 Cor. 15:52 ]

  Just looking at the grammatical structure of the sentence belies any such 'explanation' as offered by JW, BS, or SDA (what level of English do they attain to anyway?). When one has no preconceived notions of how something should read, they are free to read it as the author intended. And this is not a simple grammatical error of Paul; we know that he was a very learned man and very deliberate in how he laid out his thoughts.

  The argument to support such drivel is that the commas set apart the middle phrase in order to describe the 'shout' (as an explanatory expression). That is not the case however. The commas are used here in order to separate a list of three or more items. Furthermore, if that middle phrase is indeed an explanatory expression (clarifying 'shout'), then the conjunction 'with' would not be used in relation to the "voice of an archangel". The conjunction 'with' is used to in order to show that all three items are accompanying the arrival of Christ. Commas can only be used to set off an explanatory expression as long as it doesn't do so within a list, which this clearly is. This is because the structure would get confusing and the reader would not know which was the explanatory expression and which were the items composing the list. In such a case, the explanatory expression would have to be set apart by using dashes.

  Again, the entire structure of this sentence is that of a list. The commas separate the three different items and 'with' connects each item to the subject.

  For it to be properly organized so that the JW and BS 'explanation' will fit, it would have to be organized as follows (or in a similar manner):

  " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout--the voice of an archangel--and with ? the trumpet of God."

  Furthermore, it's interesting to note that is says "...voice of an archangel...". This contradicts that the claim that Jesus was the archangel Michael since JWs argue that Michael, as the only archangel mentioned, is the chief angel, which somehow allows them to say Jesus is more than the angels (which He clearly is) but still less than God (which He clearly isn't). However, from the article 'an', it's clear that there is more than one archangel. If it had used the article 'the' then it would be safe to assume there is only one archangel.

  slappy
• 

  JosephMalik

  In order to believe this, you have to read things into the scriptures that are not there.

  Lovelylil,

  The way the article you quoted did? And that is also done with the Trinity and your variations of it. Trinity is not found in scripture. You have to read this into it. This was shown over and over on this thread. So we are here discussing it and our reasons why. This lets the reader make up their own mind. Made a pretty active thread at that.

  Joseph
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  unbaptized

  Of course Our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is no other than the Archangel Michael. All evidence points to him. whether the witnesses teach this doctrine or anyone else. But now he holds a higher position at the eight hand of God. In Jude Michael would not act against Satan out of respect for Jehovah the Father. Jesus had stated to his followers and the pharisees, scribes that he is the one whom came down from Heaven and will be the only one to ascend to Heaven. My Lord is the true bread that came down from Heaven. Jesus and Michael are the same because although he was in human form he still used that same archangels call to raise people who were dead back to life during his earthly ministry. He raised Lazarus and others to life. Soon this call will be implemented on a worldwide scale.
• 

  lovelylil

  slappy,

  good job explaining that point about 1 Thessalonians.

  Joseph,

  What article are you referring to that I quoted from? I wrote that paper about Michael the Archangel myself. I simply took the biblical texts that people try to twist to prove Jesus was Michael and put them in their proper perspective.

  By the way, did you like the next article I wrote also, the one showing that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament?

  Lilly
• 

  myelaine

  dear OBVES...

  "1/3 of God - the Father , 1/3 of God - the Son , 1/3 of God - the Holy Ghost ."...

  ...wrong...

  God is not the sum of His parts...when God sends out His Son He is not diminished, when He sends out His Holy Spirit He is not diminished...God is fullness...

  Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. colossians 2:8-9

  love michelle
• 

  lovelylil

  unbaptized,

  Are you familiar with the book of Enoch? Enoch was the son of Cain and unlike his father, was a God fearing man. Read Genesis to find out more about Enoch.

  Anyway, Jehovah God gave him many visions about the last days and the 2nd coming of Christ. This book did not make it into our official bible canon but was widely read and distributed by the early Jews even up to the time of the early Christian church. Our bible mentions one of Enoch's prophecies that was contained in his book here;

  Jude 1:14
  Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

  An important fact about Enoch is the bible says he did not see death because God took him straight up to heaven. (Hebrews 11:5). The early church knew his word was faithful and true. In his writings, he names several Archangels including Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Ralphael. Interestingly, Michael he states is the Archangel in charge of protecting God's Holy Nation Israel.

  Also of importance to note is that this God fearing man, taken right up to heaven by Jehovah does not state that Christ is an Angel at all. On the contrary, he prophesied many times about the coming Messiah who is called the "elect one", and in his book is described as being the Holy and Unique Son of God. Never did Enoch refer to the Son of God as Michael but on the contrary he expressly stated he is a seperate being.

  You may be able to find this book at the library or on amazon.com. I have a copy and it is very interesting because it sheds more light on Angels then the bible we currently use today.

  Hope this information is useful. Peace, Lilly
  
• 

  lovelylil

  Michelle,

  Thank you for clearing that up. Good point!

  Going to bed now, be back in the morning.

  Lilly
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  StAnn

  Lilly, I fear you are beating a dead horse. But you're doing a good job! I'm finding it quite interesting!

  Serena (St. Ann)
• 

  reniaa

  I didn't think this was that hard to answer.

  What came down from heaven? A human? An angel? A human/angel hybred?

  sorry deputy dog I missed your message

  What is an Angel? wiki says...

  The word "angel" in English (from Old English and German Engel), French (from Old French angele), Spanish, and many other Romance languages are derived from the Latinangelus, itself derived from Koine Greek: ???e???, angelos, "messenger" (pl. ???e???). [1] The ultimate etymology of that word in Greek is uncertain. [2]

  In Hebrew & Arabic the primary term for "angel" is "malakh" ( ???????? ), "malaika", or "malak" (????) derived from the Semitic consonantal root l-'-k (?-?-?), meaning "to send." This root is also found in the noun "Melakha" ( ???????? ), meaning "work", and the noun "Mal'achut" (??????), meaning "message". Other words referring to angels include ???? kruv [3] describing young children, from which the English word "cherub" is derived. Another Hebrew term is Gil-Gulim, meaning "revolving," and angels are sometimes depicted as wheels with wings. Derived from this is the Hebrew term "Gal-Gal," "the rotation of fortune, change." [4]

  An angel is a spiritualsupernatural being found in many religions. Although the nature of angels and the tasks given to them vary from tradition to tradition, in Christianity, Judaism and Islam, they often act as messengers from God. Other roles in religious traditions include acting as warrior or guard; the concept of a "guardian angel" is popular in modern Western culture.

  Angels are usually viewed as emanations of a supreme divine being, sent to do the tasks of that being. Traditions vary as to whether angels have free will or are merely extensions of the supreme being's will. While the appearance of angels also varies, many views of angels give them a human shape.

  they are certainly beings from the spritual realm, we know jesus lived in the spiritual. we also know he 'emptied' himself to become man (this some take to mean he is God but you can apply it equally to him being any spiritual being since we are classed as being a little lower than angels), You tell me would jesus's death have counted if he was still part angel when he died? We know from bible Angels can take on human form they did before the flood.

  Is this a good point to mention that God supposedly cannot die and yet Jesus did! doesn't that in itself prove Jesus isn't God.

  Jesus had access to holy spirit to use as he would as a man on earth to heal others and bring praise to his father.

  I'm struggling here to see what this question brings to discussion of whether jesus is God or not?
• 

  unbaptized

  Hello Lovelylil, I have read the passage at Jude 1:14 and from what I see, Jehovah is coming with his thousands upon thousands of Holy ones to judge everyone. This was stated in Revelations regarding the Lamb (Jehovah's Anointed One) standing on a mountain with his anointed followers before God. It appears to me Enoch was given some special insight on how Jehovah was going to judge the wicked and restore righteousness and holiness. There are other angels but there is only one firstborn which was Michael/Jesus. Jehovah did not use any other spirit beings to redeem mankind from sin, he used his first born. Adam was Jehovah's first born of mankind, so it is perfect justice to redeem what was lost with another first born. That's why Jehovah always advised his people Israel to honor him with their first fruits and the first of all their produce even animals and sons. This would show honor and appreciation for what Jehovah was about to accomplish with his son. He even had Abraham whom symbolized (Jehovah himself) offer his son isaac (whom symbolized Jesus) as a sacrifice to prove his love for him. Jehovah knew he was going to perform this great miracle for mankind once and for all time.