Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa 343 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Mary

  Reniaa the brain-dead twit said: I was recently sent a full message containing Mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

  I am just seeing this post for the first time. As per usual Reniaa, you have NOTHING of any substance to rebuke anything I said. First of all, I did not do any topic on the NGO scandal, nor did I do a section on the child abuse scandal----I kept it mainly to doctrinal issues.

  Second of all, most of the links you provided are---like your head: empty. There's nothing there. Even if there were, it would just be the same old nonsense that supporters of the Craptower Society repeat over and over again. Kind of like how you do on this board. You continuously ignore pointed questions, and then pretend that you've addressed them. Typical mentality of someone under the control of a cult.

  Those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

  Open-minded? That's rich, coming from a member of one of the most closed-minded cults on the face of the earth.

  Also this is not WTs santioned info just the concerned research results of people who defend the WT on the internet.

  It's not Watchtower sanctioned?! Reniaa, I'm shocked at you! Didn't you read the Kingdumb Ministry last year where it spoke gravely of Witnesses posting the Borg's doctrines etc. on the internet? Shame on you for going against Mother......

  Reniaa, the links you provided did absolutely NOTHING to refute anything I said, no matter how desperately you attempt to convince yourself that it did. Unlike you, I actually put some thought into my project and tried looking at the big picture. You did nothing except try linking to a few pro-Witness sites and you couldn't even do that right.

  But since you're so fond of what the Watchtower says, here's a quote that I think you might benefit from:

  "When persons are in great danger from a source that they do not suspect or are being misled by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them? They may prefer not to believe the warning. They may even resent it.. But does that free one from the moral responsibility to give that warning?-----January 15, 1974 Watchtower
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  mustang

  The UN business is historically indefensible.

  The reason I say is that

  1) the attitude we were taught to have and were dealt with (brutally, I add) was NO COMPROMISE.

  2) if we had been dealt with with tenderness, kindness and mercy, then those qualities could be used in turn

  3) considering items #1 & #2, ANY CHANGE is the ultimate in BETRAYAL

  4) this is not a case where the "imperfect men" excuse will cut it: all that does is amplify the hypocrisy

  5) this considered, it is longer about the UN: it is about un Christian mistreatment of the brethren.

  6) the Holy Spirit of the "spirit directed organization" should have caught this mistake: instead item #4 is invoked. This triples the hypocrisy. The sin is yet again compounded, beyond the UN issues.

  7) this lie is inextricably woven with the corrupt fabric of WTS Brooklyn, going to matters beyond the original subject

  8) as for the Library card excuse, you can order such books through other sources without joining the UN itself

  9) the thinly veiled lie in #8 is further proof of condescension the characteristic haughty treatment of the rank and file JW's

  10) #9 is extended to worse treatment for those at a distance from the "organization"

  11) as has been said before, "it is better to have questions we can't answer than to have answers we can't questions"; blind obedience is invoked to cover up an obvious mistake

  12) other matters connect to form a picture of Brooklyn's needing to do an "end run" around previously dogmatically hard set rules for POLITICAL NETWORKING

  13) all such POLITICAL NETWORKING has been condemned in the past over the NEUTRALITY ISSUE

  14) On NEUTRALITY, consider the following out of personal experience, where I faced prison:

  SSS = Selective Service System, the civilian run American military conscription mechanism

  Have you ever been arrested in Field Service? I have, three times.

  Have you ever had to prove that you were a Jehovah's witness in Federal court?

  I have: twice in Selective Service System Hearings and an additional twice in the preliminary Applications and Interviews. I prepared my case and acted as my own Counsel, that is to say Pro Se.

  Have you ever read any internal WTS Legal documents?

  I was given a "secret" internal manual from WTS on SSS procedures and regulations. This was on a "need to know basis"; I was instructed to not tell anyone I had it and return it when through.

  Have you ever been investigated by the FBI for being a Jehovah's' Witness?

  I have: this was/is part of the SSS procedure for those on Appeal. I once went into my cousins (the congo PO) office, at his place of work, on congo business. He quipped 'you just missed the FBI Agent here inquiring about you. He asked if you were pIONEERING': "Yes, I replied that I went out in service with you regularly and that I expected to see you on business today", my cousin said.

  JW association was key in my Defense and is dealt with extensively in JW Legal proceedings, both internal (Judicial Committees, generally known in Secular Law as Religious Tribunals dealing with Church Law and those that have gone to external or Secular Courts.

  15) if Brooklyn had reason to need this POLITICAL NETWORKING, then they should have come forward, come clean and said so: "we were wrong, we need to plead our case, thus and so"

  16) instead of doing the right thing, #15, WTS engaged in cover-ups, like the corrupt politicos they decry

  17) lying, as in #16, is not of Almighty God, but is of the devil, instead

  18) the unloving treatment of the brethren, #'s 1-5 et al, is not of Jesus or Almighty God

  19) the various hypocrisies are not of Almighty God

  20) the treacherous and deceitful violating NEUTRALITY and demanding that underlings follow it at the same time is two faced and not of Almighty God

  21) all of the above combine to make the UN business more than a simple small excusable mistake: IT REMAINS INDEFENSIBLE

  this is done in the manner of that Resolution that we distributed

  Mustang
• 

  mustang

  I would expect prosecutions of JW eLDER's for Obstruction of Justice in the future, as far as Abuse situations go.

  WTS damage control may have "plugged this leak in the dike" in time, however.

  OTOH, Federal Statues have much longer Limitations.

  You lightly mentioned "court cases": those of us who have been there don't take it so lightly

  Mustang
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa was very visible here until er asked her a question inconvenient for her to answer. caliber requested even a one word answer of one date the WT got right. And I am sure she does not want to answer Mary now that Mary is here to speak for herself.
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  Trevor Scott

  Reniaa,

  In light of Deut 18:20-22, I am still waiting for you to justify your WT leaders proclaiming their false prophecy as "the Creator's promise" and "Jehovah's prophetic word":

  "...the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away."

  "Jehovah's prophetic word through Jesus Christ is: 'This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment." --WT 5/15 1984 p6 (note, "[of 1914]" is in the original text)

  The leaders of this cult attributed their false prophecy directly to God; they said their false prophecy was HIS WORD and HIS PROMISE. Consider also that these statements were made in print and delivered to MILLIONS of people around the world. In other words, your cult leaders told millions of people around the world that God PROMISED something that he did not promise. And they did this repeatedly for many years.

  In case you don't have your nwt handy, here's Deut 18:20-22: "However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: 'How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?' When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him."

  I await your reply.

  TS
• 

  truthseeker

  I will answer the question after you answer these 3

  Which religion has the date right? (if you can tell me this I will drop any ideas of following JW's quicker than greased lightning and join them!)

  If we can't do a date should we assume all the prophecy part of the bible concerning armegeddon should be ignored and never addressed? (as most christian faiths do now)

  Should we try and prepare people for armegeddon, if prolonged disappointment will lead to them leaving the faith if it doesn't happen soon enough for their liking.?

  I'll bite.

  Which religion has the date right? (if you can tell me this I will drop any ideas of following JW's quicker than greased lightning and join them!)

  Jesus said at Matt 24:36-37: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

  Acts 1:7 "said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction"

  The context of the scriptures above show us that we should not calcuulate or guess the date that Jesus would come.

  Watchtower failed to observe the commands from the Son of Man when they said 1975, 1914 etc.

  If we can't do a date should we assume all the prophecy part of the bible concerning armegeddon should be ignored and never addressed? (as most christian faiths do now)

  A wrong assumption - Revelation contains a lot of symbolism including numbers such as 144,000 but it contains no dates, therefore it need not be ignored by students of the Bible.

  Should we try and prepare people for armegeddon, if prolonged disappointment will lead to them leaving the faith if it doesn't happen soon enough for their liking.?

  The Bible does talk about the "last days' and the "end of this system" - it does not say when. If the conditions in Paul's time were such that he had to write a letter to Timothy about "critical times" then logically, looking at today, there have always been critical times hard to deal with since the book of Timothy was written.

  Preparing people for Armaggedon implies that one would at least have some idea of when it would arrive.

  If you leave Armaggedon out of the equation for just a moment and people simply followed Christ' instruction to love thy neighbor and love God then they do not need any additional preparation, because these two laws should be sufficient until as such time in there life that the big A finally arrives.

  Keep in expectation of it doesn't mean worrying about it as if it is coming tomorrow as the Watchtower implies. Such an attitude can rob people of the joy of simply living.
• 

  megawatt

  Reniaa is a lonely person. Sorry you have so much conflict within.
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  Atlantis

  With all due respect, either Watchtower leadership "lied" under oath, or an admission was made by "Covington" that "false prophecy" was promulgated! This was an admission, "under-oath" that the Watchtower organization leaders are "false prophets!" What more "proof" does a person need? The Watchtower can not have the facts both ways! (Douglas Walsh transcript, p.347, Covington under cross) Watchtower Society's highest officials, including the Vice-President (later President). Fred W. Franz, gave revealing testimony proving that Jehovah's Witnesses live under a religious dictatorship which denies independent thinking to its adherents, and forces JWs to accept and preach "false prophecy" to their neighbors. http://www.lulu.com/content/762879 Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
  A. I agree that.
  Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
  
  A. That is correct.
  
  Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
  
  A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity. http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1709&pid=17800&mode=threaded&start=0 When a person "defends" the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, they are defending a false prophet! Not by our words, but by the words of the Watchtower officials themselves! So, Watchtower officials are either liars, or false prophets, take your pick! Nevada!-
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  Kenneson

  Gladring,

  It's utterly ridiculous to imagine that the U.N. is a government. Can you imagine the U.S. having a government within a government? We pay taxes to the U.S. government, not the U.N. Americans give their allegiance to the U.S. government, not the U.N. Lots of people have never been in the U.N. It is not any part of their lives. None of the nations that belong to the U.N. are willing to give up their sovereignty to the U.N. The U.N. cannot operate on its own; it has to depend on the o.k. of member nations.
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  reniaa

  one response this time ? Anyway here is my question(in which I hope I am not speaking just to thin air )

  From the above other posters quote ..don't burden yourself with all the dates they got wrong .. just name ONE date

  that WT. got right ! A one word answer will be sufficient if you so choose ! (please don't allow little details like facts detour you )

  hi caliber

  i'm literally answering posts between jobs and cannot get to everyone, I think subconscously some people after many times of chatting to them probs catch my attention when I wading through the comments, I'll be honest when people start saying opinion stuff on me personally, they're unlikely to get a reply and there is some I have replied to who are now not warranting a reply in my limited time because they go on the attack. I'm sorry I've missed yours it wasn't deliberate occasionally i'll answer one person who represents what a number of people say. I've started an impossible thread here because I only wanted to provide the links and have people get a chance to look at them and enjoy or dismiss them at their own leisure but I digress.

  I'm in two minds about the date issue simply because they haven't predicted armegeddon, the dates could be a hangover of their adventist roots that needs weeding out. Or there might be some that have been correct but since none actually ask for some sort of sign theirs no way of knowing.

  I know Jehovah's witnesses to be a changing org since I was a child refining process is a common practise for them, this is not true for other christian faiths that seem unable to change accept in losing what they already had and become sort of country club versions of what they were, giving people a nice enjoyable time and even a fun loving God but not much more. how do these these express Zeal for God beyond a weekly meeting and a fun day.

  Somebody said they were sick of just living in fear all the time I can understand it but if the alternative is.....

  29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
  "Let us eat and drink,
  for tomorrow we die." [d] 33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

  then we need to examine more thoroughly what our motivations are in a religion and like I said I can only answer for myself!