Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa 343 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  mustang

  Commentary on 1975 AND 1925, with quotes, found in a post by uncle_onion @

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/14841/1.ashx

  Notice that Rutherford has done a CYA shift in 1926, when 1925 came and went, versus his positive assertion in 1922. 4 th post in thread contains these:

  "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (Watchtower 1926 p. 232.)

  Of course, having looked at the original quotes, we now understand that the "Some" who "anticipated the work would end in 1925," was really the Society who had lead the brothers to that conclusion. Contrast the statement "but the Lord did not state so," with what they said earlier in 1922:

  "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922 p. 217).

  Mustang
• 

  Leolaia

  Since my research on crucifixion has come up many times in this thread, and since reniaa has incorrectly characterized my views on the subject, I suppose I'll explain the matter again ... this time in very simplified terms:

  First, let's distinguish between the words and the things they refer to.

  1) Upright poles or stakes have been used in human culture for many thousands of years, for many different purposes but especially in building structures. They were also used by ancient Greeks. And they continued to remain in use, up to the present day.

  2) The cross is the instrument used in a particular kind of ancient execution in which a person is nailed or tied alive on a structure and displayed publically. It came into wide use around the fifth century BC in the Persian empire and it usually consisted of a stake used with this new function (sometimes with multiple stakes). Then the Romans borrowed it in the third century BC and modified it -- adding a second transverse beam called the patibulum which comes from older Roman execution practices. Although the shape of the cross varied according to the sadistic creativity of the executioner, the patibulum was very widely used -- especially in cases when the criminal was forced to carry it and parade it throughout the city prior to execution (as in the case of Jesus).

  And these are the words in question:

  3) Greek stauros, Latin palus, and Latin crux

  Originally stauros and palus were words referring to (1); there was a time in Greek literature before the invention of crucifixion, so obviously stauros originally meant just "stake" (as in Homer). Then in the fifth century BC, Persian crucifixion came to the attention to those in the West. The Greeks did not coin a new word for (2), the instrument used in this practice, they just used the word stauros -- as the cross was a kind of stake. The Romans however coined a word for the device when they encountered it -- they called it a crux because it was a device of torture. Then in the third century BC, the Romans adopted crucifixion as a form of execution, adding their native patibulum crossbeam to it. The Greeks however did not borrow the Latin word crux or coin a new Greek word for the Roman cross. They continued to use stauros to refer to it. And they did not borrow the word patibulum either. They referred to the patibulum as stauros as well. Palus meanwhile continued to refer to a stake used for purposes other than crucifixion (although stipes was the word used to refer to the upright post used in a crux).

  That's it in a nutshell. So, yes, stauros did refer to two-beamed crosses in the first century AD. It is completely false that stauros did not obtain this reference until the time of Constantine, as the Society has sometimes claimed. And since the gospels portray Jesus as carrying his own stauros through Jerusalem prior to his execution, it is more probable that the gospel writers pictured the cross as two-beamed than the alternative (which the Society insists on).

  (And as I mentioned elsewhere, the issue is not important theologically or historically; what is important is that the Society has gone to such lengths to misrepresent scholarship)
• 

  JWdaughter

  Mary, in response to Reniaa's declaration that they never made such prophecy you said:
  
  "Yep.....a few have already given her the quotes proving that they indeed predicted 1914 as the date for The End. Plus, Reniaa obviously read my entire project which had a ton of quotes from the WTS's own literature, so she's more than aware that they've made false predictions, even though she likes to pretend that she's not."
  
  She has stated regarding these things that some really had to 'dig'. When does false prophecy wear off? How long does it take? Why would God give his blessing to and approval to a known false prophet? Those are some pretty important questions since the allegation is that Jesus appointed the WTS in 1919 or what have you.
• 

  reniaa

  "DEFENSE" is spelled "DEFENCE" in Great Britain...

  thank you bennyk :) and for proof

  Ministry of Defence

  Main Building

  Whitehall

  London SW1A 2HB

  Ministry of Defence Organisation

  A guide to the organisation of MOD

  I wonder what it speaks of international relations if americans do not even know that erm other countries have different languages ooo and spellings but don't get embaressed those who didn't realise it makes you an strange pink colour ^^

  reniaa
• 

  passwordprotected

  Hey, cool, Reniaa answers the hard questions regarding international spelling standards, but deftly sidesteps the questions regarding the WTS false prophet status.
• 

  fokyc

  I can see your point but wouldn't the conviction goto lawyers and still have to be proven beyond doubt but I'm english is the process different to america?

  Renaii,

  I am from the UK! Gloucestershire, and this was a British case,

  IF children lie about something which you can not prove otherwise,

  they will be believed and you will be convicted, there are many people in prison who have been wrongly convicted,

  the one I am particularly interested in was a JW sister, born into the truth.

  fokyc
• 

  reniaa

  hi laialeo you know were I stand on this

  Originally stauros and palus were words referring to (1); there was a time in Greek literature before the invention of crucifixion, so obviously stauros originally meant just "stake" (as in Homer). Then in the fifth century BC, Persian crucifixion came to the attention to those in the West. The Greeks did not coin a new word for (2), the instrument used in this practice, they just used the word stauros -- as the cross was a kind of stake. The Romans however coined a word for the device when they encountered it -- they called it a crux because it was a device of torture. Then in the third century BC, the Romans adopted crucifixion as a form of execution, adding their native patibulum crossbeam to it. The Greeks however did not borrow the Latin word crux or coin a new Greek word for the Roman cross. They continued to use stauros to refer to it. And they did not borrow the word patibulum either. They referred to the patibulum as stauros as well. Palus meanwhile continued to refer to a stake used for purposes other than crucifixion (although stipes was the word used to refer to the upright post used in a crux ).

  did they use the word cross? No! can the words be translated using words that acurately convey the words used? (yes execution stake or torture stake) you are trying to say its ok to use 'Garden' instead of 'grassy area' it may well be a garden but if the words used are grassy area then they are the ones we should use. whether jesus died on any cross-like instrument is immaterial and despite you research its not definitively proved.

  my next point is why is it important? because the cross has become a graven image in 99% of christian churches and so when you say cross it isn't just a random word like garden it means a specific type of garden, a latin cross and all the religious significance 1700 hundred years of idolatry brings to it. the only way to get rid of this typecasting is to go back to the simple original meaning.

  laialeo I know we may never agree on this but I do respect your opinion and depth of research.

  reniaa
• 

  passwordprotected

  If it doesn't matter whether Christ died on a cross or not, why do JWs make an issue of it? It's the whole 'graven image' issue, isn't it? If so, have a quick glance at the front cover of your study edition WT. Notice that massive watchtower bearing down on the Bible? Have a look at the glass door panels at the Paterson buildings. A watchtower positioned over a Bible.
  
  What about the tie clips, key rings, bookmarks, Bible covers that feature watchtowers or the tetragrammaton? 'Graven images'?
  
  
  
  
• 

  reniaa

  Commentary on 1975 AND 1925, with quotes, found in a post by uncle_onion @

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/14841/1.ashx

  Notice that Rutherford has done a CYA shift in 1926, when 1925 came and went, versus his positive assertion in 1922. 4 th post in thread contains these:

  "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (Watchtower 1926 p. 232.)

  Of course, having looked at the original quotes, we now understand that the "Some" who "anticipated the work would end in 1925," was really the Society who had lead the brothers to that conclusion. Contrast the statement "but the Lord did not state so," with what they said earlier in 1922:

  "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922 p. 217).

  Dates.....half a dozen peeps quoting wt from early last century quoting dates right back to the times when even the wt still had a cross and birthdays.....I made the point higher up that dates don't mean a massive issue to me and certainly in those early days they wanted to predict specific times but as I said it does show as a leftover from their adventist roots.

  We are pulling apart the WT very aggressively and I know many of you have chosen christian faiths that certainly couldn't even take the same level of scrutiny.

  Unfortunately date setting is not unique to witnesses and is pretty much happenned by someone in every faith including people like isaac newton, john wesley founder of methodists and even before all the books of the Bible were written, there was talk that Christ's return had already taken place. The Thessalonians panicked on Paul. thinking jesus was arriving.

  

  So if using faulty dates is a reason to condemn a religion then I think we would have to condemn all religions but one interesting fact is the bible does seem to show this would be a defining measure of the times just before armegeddon.....

  When I looked at the list and Jw's were on it lol quite a lot, the site I looked at had 220 twenty predictions well over half had occured in the last 100 years and the rest from ad 40 onwards but thats just me mentioning an interesting fact from this random site, I'm not sure this site is a definitive list because I found other dates not on it in my research. and further research suggested 1000's of failed predictions, and 1000 ad and 2000 ad seem to be quite targeted

  End of the world is not merely a saying; its implications would vary from place to place and country to country. Nostradamus predicted the End of the World in 1994, 1998 and also 2012.

  On this for me as I said earlier the jury is out, each of us has to decide if Jw's are materially damaged by using dates in there Doctrines originally and still retaining the 1914 as the time satan has come down to earth, personally I think we will leave dates behind as many current religious groups have, it seems to be a mistake of newish faiths but one they quickly grow out of but.....the world is significantly changed since Jesus first came and the bible is very clear we have to keep prepared for Armegeddon, if men have rushed ahead of the bible and like in thessalonians made themselves foolishly predicting dates Paul forgave them. But I don't think assuming it won't happen on the bases of false predictions is a good idea either.

  Reniaa
• 

  reniaa

  I feel for you fokyc

  Renaii,

  I am from the UK! Gloucestershire, and this was a British case,

  IF children lie about something which you can not prove otherwise,

  they will be believed and you will be convicted, there are many people in prison who have been wrongly convicted,

  the one I am particularly interested in was a JW sister, born into the truth.

  fokyc

  Unfortunately you hit the nail on the head of the situation that if you always take one person's word as proof, sometimes it can be a lie and the accused gets wrongly convicted. the 2 witness rule is supposed to protect from this but with incest as a crime most of the times you just don't get 2 witnesses. and so which is better... believe the child everytime and have the risk of false inprisonments or risk a guilty person going free?

  That innocent people get put in prison is a sad fact of life and unfortunately that guilty walk free is something that also happens. I hate that we have these sort of situations we cannot escape only hope the that right is done.