happy2bfree: "Blaspheme" is a relative term, since the GB would say you saying that is "Blaspheme". The Jews said Jesus was guilty of "Blaspheme". Everyone in religion says everyone else is committing "Blaspheme".
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc 193 Replies latest jw experiences
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Deputy Dog
johnnyc
Many people have died for their beliefs in Jesus and God - even though they may not have been right in their worship. Dont you think Jesus will remember his promise about "whoever loses his life" on his behalf, will save it..?...even for all of them to at least have a chance to know God in truth. The whole point of this is to say that you should not view giving up everything in your worship to God could ever be a bad thing - and if you begrudgingly view it that way, then you are right - you should not have done it - cause it doesn't matter anymore.
The disciples and the martyrs died for what they knew to be true, not for a lie. Do you think God will honor your devotion to a lie? How is your devotion to a group of false prophets losing your life "on his behalf"? Do you think it's your works that save you?
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besty
http://brci.org/Attachments/Org.pdf
JohnnyC - read the .pdf linked above - it might help you decide your question is a false dichotomy - in other words it doesn't matter what combination of deceptive and wrong you come up with.
The WTS are just plain old irrelevant - in the bigger picture they are insignificant.
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Mary
johnnyc said: Unlike Mormons (Joseph Smith etc), the WTBTS has never claimed to be a "prophet". They only claim that they try to interpret prophecy left by others in the bible.
Uh noooo, they've claimed to be prophets. There's a ton of examples from their literature proving this. 'Trying to interpret prophecy left by others in the bible' would make someone a....guess what? A prophet, because that's what prophets do: they interpret prophecy. This isn't rocket science.
Therefore, these dates should not ever be viewed as "prophecy's unfulfilled" but rather "failed interpretation". There is a huge difference between those statements.
No, it's basically a playing with words on the part of a JW to try and defend the indefensible. Here is a copy of a post I did on another thread with another JW on here (Reniaa, who claims she's only thinking of going back):
How does the bible describe what constitutes a "false prophet"? It is described in Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
"...However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him…"
It’s really quite simple: If someone predicts an event and claims that they are speaking for God, either the event will come true (proving that they are a true prophet), or it will not come true (proving that they are a false prophet), end of story. There is no allowance in the scriptures for anything else, no matter how well meaning someone may be.
Yet this is exactly what the Watchtower Society has tried to do. While admitting that they have "made mistakes" regarding future events, they gloss over what turned out to be "false predictions" by claiming ‘well, we’ve never lost faith or ceased to be watchful’----as though that some how excuses them for "speaking presumptuously". This concept is completely foreign in the scriptures as Jehovah has never said: "well, as long as you don’t lose faith, I’ll overlook your false prophesying." No, it simply says that if a prediction does not come true, then whoever predicted it constitutes a "false prophet."
To try and further distance themselves from the accusations, the Reasoning book further tries to justify the Organization by saying:
"Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized....... Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets . They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.----Reasoning From the Scriptures (1985, 1989) p.136
"...There are some who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true. They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event..."---Awake! 1993 March 22 pp.3-4 Why So Many False Alarms?
Does "sincerity" alone count as the Organization tries to claim in justification for their numerous false predictions? Not according to their own publications:
"No matter how sincere a person may be, presumptuousness and disobedience never win God’s favor." ---December 15, 1983 Watchtower on page 6
"Hence, the courageous course is being adopted not in sincerity alone, but on the basis of reliable information, correct knowledge . And this under trustworthy guidance, better than the guidance of "valueless gods." The correctness of the course is proved by the fact that it was foretold in a prophecy that has turned out to be no lie but the truth ."---Watchtower December 15, 1972 p. 742 par. 5
"...In the all-important matter of worshiping God, it is likewise true that sincerity alone does not guarantee that God is pleased with our worship . We may conscientiously believe we are doing well in this regard, yet we may be deluding ourselves."---Watchtower January 1, 1964 p. 4 Will Sincerity Alone Please God?
"Since the Bible was completed and "inspiration" is no longer necessary, a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible....... It matters not whether he proclaims his message with deliberate, willful and malicious intent to deceive, or whether he is the blinded and deluded dupe of Satan and hence unwittingly used of him. In either case, he is a false prophet and hence the agent of Satan". ---The Watchtower May 15, 1930, p
"...Merely sincerely accepting and following a religious organization will not guarantee God’s approval and protection through this world’s end. Sincerity, conviction, or intensity of devotion will not change falsehood into truth ..."-----Watchtower October 15, 1960 pp. 614-615
"...sincerity alone does not purify someone of wrong teachings..."---Awake! February 2006 p. 13
"For our worship to be acceptable to God, sincerity is not only desirable but also essential. Yet, note that sincerity alone is not enough. It must be complemented with truth........For us to be acceptable to God, our sincere beliefs must be based on accurate information." ----Watchtower February 1, 2003 p. 32
"The man who wants to please God must be sincere. But sincerity alone does not make one’s religion approved in God’s eyes." ---Watchtower March 15, 1969 p. 166
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true."----Watchtower 1991 December 1, p. 7
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.
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mcsemike
johnnyc: I simply cannot believe the drivel coming out of your mouth. You sound like a Philadelphia lawyer. Thankful for the things we did learn, although some died needlessly and some committed suicide after being DF'd for something that is now okay to do? Are you on drugs???????????
Stop picking at every word. If being anal is your thing, then READ SILENT LAMBS, RAY FRANZ'S BOOKS, AND FREEMINDS. Then you can come here with this nitpicking nonsense.
Everyone here has given you more than enough information. You just want to keep dodging the bullet and evading admitting that the WT is not god's people. They haven't gotten ONE prediction right. They can't even tell me if it will rain tomorrow. And you trust these liars???
You need help in two areas. First, your knowledge of the WT's lies and the horrific damage they've done to the world, especially JW's. Secondly, you need therapy really bad. Find a mental health professional in your area. I see through your reasons for staying here so long with all this nonsense. You aren't supposed to be here if you are a JW. And if you are not a JW, then why defend them? Everything Russell taught was from religions before him. He didn't come up with anything of importance. Get help and get a life. READ THE DAMN WEBSITES AND THE BOOKS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?????!!!!!
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Awakened at Gilead
@MCSEMike...
hey, go easy on the guy.. he just got DFd and he is going thru some serious cognitive dissonance... we were all there (at least I was), and I know what he is getting at...
@ JohnNYC,
I do have one more book suggestion that will directly answer your question (at least it cleared it up for me when I read it)... not a Franz book.. PM me for details...
Take care.
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jaguarbass
You obviously feel your current thinking is correct, but I wonder if you ever have the slightness fondness for the WTBTS for teaching you certain things about the bible?? Is there any appreciation for any of what you have been taught?
I have a fondness for the simpler times when the earth was young and there seemed to be answers to the big and deep questions.
Now I find I wasted the best years the formative years of my life and there are no answers to the big and deep questions of life
Google can prove that.
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jaguarbass
However, if you were doing that for Jesus (and God) then why not embrace all that you did for the right reasons, and you are now made to suffer for Christ...as the bible says to.
1 What comes down the line on this journey your on Johny is Christ is a myth.
2 The bible is a book of mind control.
3 And you are god.
or 1 and 2 and 4
4 There is no God.
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FreeWilly
Johnny,
I've been following the thread and just want to point out a few things you should consider.
Regarding the "prophet" thing, your comparison of the Society's predictions to Jonah are not quite compatible. Jonah DID receive information from Jehovah. His transmission of that information to the Ninevites was a faithful and accurate representation of the direction given from Jehovah despite Gods changing his mind. He said precicely what Jehovah told him. He didn't get it wrong, revise it, retract it or otherwise muck it up. Whereas the Society claims to be the sole channel of communication from Jehovah and yet many of these have failed, been revised or reinterpreted. So either Jehovah is responsible for the failures or these were not a result of direction from Jehovah proving the Societys claim wrong - at the very least in those cases.
The disciples who wrongly speculated on the timing of the end is likewise an incompatible example. Again they were not charged with delivering a message from God. They drew wrong conclusions and speculated on it with others. Jesus quickly corrected the misconception. Compare that with the Society teaching false, date centered predictions for decades unabated only to replace them with more faulty predictions while simultaneously claiming they came from Jehovah.
The issue is not human imperfection causing published errors to occur, but rather claiming themselves divinely directed and a channel of communication from God. We can mince words about whether claiming to be a channel of communication, receiving angelic direction, identifying oneself as part of a "prophet class" etc. qualifies as claiming to be a prophet. The Society, by claiming to be the only recipients of divine direction are placing their words on a level with God's. They wield a good deal of influence due to this claim. We know this claim is wrong in at least dozens (if not hundreds) of instances which begs the larger question.
Whenever anyone in the Bible claimed to be a "channel of communication" representing God in the Bible, this claim was backed by unmistakable divine power. Abraham, Moses, the prophets, the Apostles, Jesus - all had divine power to back up their bold claims as representatives. The Society claims that the prophecy in Joel (2:28) that speaks of God's spirit being poured out IS true of them just like it was true of the Apostles. They adimttedly lack any tangible manifestations of God's power and backing that the Apostles enjoyed. Their claim is that Jehovah's outpouring of spirit is instead apparent in the "glorious truth's" revealed through them. So their evidence of divine backing stands or falls on the accuracy and reliability of their own writings. Perhaps you can measure this claim against their prolific failures here
Whether or not the were "deceptive or just wrong" is somewhat beside the point. Judging a multigenerational collective of men in this way is futile. However what is clear is that their claim of divine direction lives or dies on the basis of what they have published while occupying the assumed role as "God's channel". On a common sense level, if the salvation of mankind depends on people's response to God's information as presented through JW's, does enormity of revisions, reversals, retractions and failed predictions make sense to you? Could Jehovah blame anyone for rejecting the JW message based on the prevalance of their false doomsday claims, doctrinal flip flops and in some cases plain quackery? How could he?
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johnnyc
1914 comments: You know there is another way of looking at all this. If the GB were only men content with greed for power, why hold on to a date such as 1914 for this long? Surely they could have changed it a while back, and most everyone would have cheered - or had a sigh of relief. Membership may have suffered at first, like in 1975, but you and I know the JW engine would keep memberships growing. I guess I am pointing to the fact that holding onto this date is causing havoc, yet they STILL proclaim it. We are only a couple years away from that date being 100% obsolete - yet, recently, they only made it more specific to only anointed who had to have been alive in 1914 (and don't show me the article where you all THINK they changed "generation", there is no specific statement changing such other than going back and forth as to if it means everyone or just the anointed). Comments about the GB being so controlling in peoples lives, makes me think about a boat full of holes, and them trying to keep it together just a bit longer – all the while people in the water are jumping into the boat making it worse – yet they keep holding that ship together any way they can. Then certain people keep trying to purposefully sink the ship – so they start knocking them off to save the rest. They may inadvertently knock someone off the boat back into the water who didn’t deserve it, but they are there to offer a helping hand back into the boat – as nothing is permanent, and they truly desire everyone to be saved. See it may be God’s boat, but like it or not it comes with holes (caused by Satan, but allowed by God). If you are mad about the holes, it is not the Stewart who is trying (again TRYING) to temporarily plug them that you should be mad at, is it? But then again, cant you be mad at God – he gave you at least a boat. Just because the Stewart does not fix the boat, does not invalidate the fact he is the Stewart. This analogy could go on forever, but I get what all of you are saying in return – LEARN TO SWIM on your own. Im not agreeing that is the answer, but I do hear what you are saying. (and please, no need to berate this illustration to death)