oompa: I guess you are right, I was responding to someone else. I'll read yours again and respond to your specific comments - sorry.
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc 193 Replies latest jw experiences
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mcsemike
To JohnnyC: The issue here involves dozens of concepts, too numerous to list them all.
They joined the UN after calling it a whore. That makes them whores/sluts. Not a nice name for a group that says that only THEY know anything about God. God never told them to announce anything. They do it for power and money and glory. I've met GB members and have been around this cult for almost 40 years.
You will find, if you REALLY do your research, that most of the conduct of the GB, elders, and rank and file, is due to psychological needs that this sick cult satisfies. I have a BA in Psychology, so please don't insist the WTS is correct and they mean well. They do NOT.
They hide pedophiles. They say bad things only happen once or twice. That's a lie. They happen thousands of times. They have lied for over 130 years. I've read almost every book they published and have Studies in the Scriptures that Russell wrote. The book and its pyramid theory are a lunatic joke.
Most of the GB are mentally ill. Most men who become elders crave the power and glory. They barely finished high school and wash windows for a living, yet they pretend to know how to handle any and all problems in a person's life. I wouldn't even presume to be able to be a therapist in all the fields of mental health.
They cheat on the donation arrangement. They've urged people to follow their own rules about blood, etc., yet they change them all the time. God doesn't change. So if the WTS changes ANY teaching, they are from Satan.
We "apostates" (and we are NOT) point out the hypocrisy in the WTS and we get DF'd. The GB points out the same thing in the Catholic Church and all JW's clap. Don't you find all of this disturbing?? You should.
Study Silent Lambs and the Freeminds site. You won't learn the truth from the JW's. They don't have it.
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jam
one of many problems I have with wt. From the begaining the cult was out in left field...Two scriptures come to mind, Matt16;18 solid foundation of the church and Matt7;17-19 good fruit can not bringe forth evil fruit..When you ask a witness about thier history they will tell you that was in the pass, we have made many changes over the years, and yet they will look down other christian groups....Tell me how can you be the one and only org. on earth that speak for God...when you have been so wrong so many times..
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shamus100
I started this journey probably as many of you did
Hi JohnnyC,
Incorrect, if you meant that people started they're journey because they were DF'd.
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shamus100
JohnnyC,
You don't need to look at Franz to make a decision. You have to weigh the evidence and make a decision for yourself.
Personally, I haven't read COC. Ray Franz is not why I left the WT. Nor was it because I was disfellowshipped. Nor was it because of this website, or any other. (I started posting well after). I'm just inactive - and apostate, I guess. And I've never been called on by dubs since I left.
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PrimateDave
I have been virtually non-stop studying everything I can get my hands on with regards the WTBTS, and "apostate" literature and information.
I was never curious about the "apostate" books that argued doctrine. I was only interested in whether the Bible was the Word of God that it claimed to be. That didn't require "apostate" literature. The only "apostate" book of any relevance in my opinion was Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz. While he touched on doctrinal points, the biggest service he did with this book was to demystify the Governing Body in the minds of doubting Witnesses.
In all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
That is why I don't bother with all the "apostates" who argue doctrine as if the Bible actually is divinely inspired.
However, I do find about 20% (if I have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning. Of that 20%, a good portion is based upon "failed prophecy" - 1879, 1914, 1925, 1975 etc.
It was rather eye opening to finally consider the basis for so many of these dates: numerology based on convoluted pyramid measurements and inaccurate historical reference dates.
The problem with much of what I read is the conclusion which the information is trying to promote - namely, the WTBTS is deceptive or fraudulent in its claims.
This is a question I have wondered about: Did they knowingly promote fraud? I have to say that I don't believe that they did. I think that the self deception runs all the way to the top, or at least it did until relatively recently. I think that if there had been an overarching conspiracy to deceive, then Ray Franz would have exposed it. What he did expose was a very human mindset that would use intellectually dishonest methods to achieve certain ends. Their dishonesty has been exposed countless times, but intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacies are not unique to the Watchtower Society. For example, most of their creationist claims are borrowed directly from Christian creationist literature which is full of inaccurate statements and quotes taken out of context to try to prove points. Such dishonest methods are deemed necessary because the end is considered more important than the means: saving people from God's wrath.
However, what does the WTBTS gain in promoting such dates as possible conclusions to this system, if they are known to be untruthful representations? After all, it is much more of an embarrassment when these dates come and go without event, and has had a much more negative effect on organization membership numbers....thereby working against what it would seemingly be trying to do - increase membership.
It is quite probable that after the embarrassment of 1975, they resolved to never again promote a date as such. Even so, I think even the leadership in Brooklyn had their hopes up for the End to come in that year.
If anyone has a legal mind here, as you well know, to prove fraud you must prove motive and improper gain in an action. Where does the WTBTS gain in a failed expectation?
Nothing.
From what I can see, they loose memberships and are left way worse than if they never said anything at all. In fact, you could say that when they make such predictions, the motive could only be that they honestly believe such.
Yes.
Unlike Mormons (Joseph Smith etc), the WTBTS has never claimed to be a "prophet". They only claim that they try to interpret prophecy left by others in the bible. Therefore, these dates should not ever be viewed as "prophecy's unfulfilled" but rather "failed interpretation". There is a huge difference between those statements.
Semantics. Really this is the least important thing you need to worry about. From my point of view, if the Bible is not the Inspired Word of a Supreme, Omnipotent Being, whose existence cannot be proven (extraordinary claims...), then who cares if the Watchtower Society is its prophet?
Dave -
Deputy Dog
johnnyc
Deputy Dog: So do you believe that the members of the GB actually meet and discuss what lie they are going to promote or cover-up? If you all believe the WTBTS is lying, then it must come down to a point of people there at Brooklyn meeting to decide how best to accomplish such.
exhibit # 1 would be their own definition of "lie" Insight-Vol2 1988 page 244 (see previous post)
Even your prince of apostates, Raymond Franz, said the WTBTS (including the GB) are sincere in their efforts, but Franz uses a catch phrase to describe his opinion on what is happening at the GB level - "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." He claims they are unrealistic and myth based, but he does not accuse them of lying. Don't you think he would be one of the first whistle-blowers of the GB if they were having meetings to talk about how they can deceive their membership??? You all need to "get real" about what is, at the worst case, occurring at the GB. Mistakes and nothing more.
exhibit #2 conspiracy
Watchtower 1957 page285
UseTheocraticWarStrategy
A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.This is clearly conspiracy to protect the org. by lying (hiding the truth). In fact you are using this tactic on this thread.
Regardless of whether or not God uses them to channel information, the fact is they HONESTLY believe that he is. This tread was started to discuss if the GB errors, or is fraudulent. So far, NO ONE has presented proof of fraud. Admittedly, it is difficult to prove, but nothing less than information showing the GB knew one thing to be true, yet purposefully and intently sought to deceive others of an alternative reality. Something along the lines of a recording of one of their meetings, or personal memos indicating such. Otherwise, any claim that they are fraudulent is a conjecture or slanderous.
exhibit #3 WT Records The two signed letters on WT letter head (seen in previous post) http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/who_is_greber.htm · Aid To Bible Understanding Page 1134
· Aid To Bible Understanding Page 1669
· Make Sure Of All Things Page 489
· The Watchtower 9-15-62 Page 554
· The Watchtower 10-15-75 Page 640
· The Watchtower 4-15-76 Page 231
· The Word Page 5 If we were investigating a crime rather than the WT consulting spirit mediums. I have more than enough warrant to bring to trial. -
Anti-Christ
I think PrimateDave just gave the best answer.
Just to add one more thing, the goal of every powerful organization is to maintain that power and continue existing as long as possible, think about that.
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Deputy Dog
I think PrimateDave just gave the best answer.
I think Dave left a few things out.
This is a question I have wondered about: Did they knowingly promote fraud? I have to say that I don't believe that they did. I think that the self deception runs all the way to the top, or at least it did until relatively recently.
Here Dave was to kind. Self deception doesn't get you off the hook.
However I think you nailed it "... the goal of every powerful organization is to maintain that power and continue existing as long as possible, think about that."
I think that if there had been an overarching conspiracy to deceive, then Ray Franz would have exposed it. What he did expose was a very human mindset that would use intellectually dishonest methods to achieve certain ends. Their dishonesty has been exposed countless times, but intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacies are not unique to the Watchtower Society. For example, most of their creationist claims are borrowed directly from Christian creationist literature which is full of inaccurate statements and quotes taken out of context to try to prove points. Such dishonest methods are deemed necessary because the end is considered more important than the means: saving people from God's wrath.
He also doesn't explain that evolutionists lie for their own reasons.
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moomanchu
Matthew 24
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?dis·creet
1. judicious in one's conduct or speech, esp. with regard to respecting privacy or maintaining silence about something of a delicate nature; prudent; circumspect.2. showing prudence and circumspection; decorous: a discreet silence.
ar·ro·gant
1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
2. characterized by or proceeding from arrogance: arrogant claims.If you're not absolutely sure about something you should keep your mouth shut -
cunning and arrogant servant.
They are just men nothing more nothing less.