Another point: I often talk to atheists who show me all sorts of (supposed) contradictions in the bible and what they claim to be inaccurate. Even God's own inspired word is subject to these sorts of attacks of "proof of un-authenticity" through error. Unless God himself comes and writes something down, there will always be these sorts of claims I suppose. Some, if not all of you, were at one time dedicated JWs who fully supported the GB and WTBTS. So that means you probably defended the GB's actions to someone out in service. You obviously feel your current thinking is correct, but I wonder if you ever have the slightness fondness for the WTBTS for teaching you certain things about the bible?? Is there any appreciation for any of what you have been taught?
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc 193 Replies latest jw experiences
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Farkel
johnnyc,
: I was simply making the point that there are examples in the bible of God's channel not always acting correctly or doing the right thing - but in each example God still requires others to keep in line with their authority.
Yeah? Name one example in the Bible where a prophet under God's spirit made a false prediction.
You attempted to pull off a father clumsy bit of sophistry on us, but it didn't work. We are not taking about "not acting correctly, or not doing the right thing." We are talking about Bible prophets claiming to speak for God and making predictions that were false.
Just one will do. Any little one. Even a teeny, weeny little example.
Farkel -
Deputy Dog
johnnyc
I find it interesting to note that many of you think the GB is sitting there thinking of ways to deceive JW's and ruin their lives, and you imagine that meetings take place which purposefully maneuver truths to place known falsehoods down in print.
I don't think "the GB is sitting there thinking of ways to deceive JW's and ruin their lives".
They ruin the lives of their followers by lying to cover up the truth about themselves just to hold on to power. They never admit to mistakes until they are caught in the lies. That's why they have the meetings that "take place which purposefully maneuver truths to place known falsehoods down in print".
This is what they think of you.
They simply don't believe you are "entitled to know the truth". I guess you don't believe you are "entitled to know the truth" either
Insight-Vol2 1988 page 244 LIE
The opposite of truth. Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person. A lie need not always be verbal. It can also be expressed in action, that is, a person may be living a lie. The Hebrew verb that conveys the idea of speaking that which is untrue is ka·zav´. (Pr 14:5) Another Hebrew verb sha·qar´ means "deal or act falsely," and the noun form is rendered "lie; deception; falsehood." (Le 19:11; Ps 44:17; Le 19:12; Ps 33:17; Isa 57:4) Hebrew shaw´, at times rendered "untruth; falsehood," basically refers to something worthless, vain, valueless. (Ps 12:2; De 5:20; Ps 60:11; 89:47; Zec 10:2) The Hebrew verb ka·chash´ (deceive) evidently has the basic meaning "prove disappointing." (Le 19:11; Ho 9:2) The Greek term pseu´dos and related words have to do with lying and falsehood.
The father, or originator, of lying is Satan the Devil. (Joh 8:44) His lie conveyed by means of a serpent to the first woman Eve ultimately brought death to her and to her husband Adam. (Ge 3:1-5, 16-19) That first lie was rooted in selfishness and wrong desire. It was designed to divert the love and obedience of the first human pair to the liar, who had presented himself as an angel of light, a benefactor. (Compare 2Co 11:14.) All other malicious lies uttered since that time have likewise been a reflection of selfishness and wrong desire. People have told lies to escape deserved punishment, to profit at the expense of others, and to gain or maintain certain advantages, material rewards, or the praise of men.
Especially serious have been the religious lies, as they have endangered the future life of persons deceived by them. Said Jesus Christ: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves." (Mt 23:15) The exchange of God’s truth for "the lie," the falsehood of idolatry, can cause a person to become a practicer of what is degrading and vile.—Ro 1:24-32.
The case of the religious leaders of Judaism in the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry shows what can happen when one abandons the truth. They schemed to have Jesus put to death. Then, when he was resurrected, they bribed the soldiers who had guarded the tomb so they would conceal the truth and spread a lie about the disappearance of Jesus’ body.—Mt 12:14; 27:1, 2, 62-65; 28:11-15; Mr 14:1; Lu 20:19.
Jehovah God cannot lie (Nu 23:19; Heb 6:13-18), and he hates "a false tongue." (Pr 6:16-19) His law to the Israelites required compensation for injuries resulting from deception or malicious lying. (Le 6:2-7; 19:11, 12) And a person presenting false testimony was to receive the punishment that he desired to inflict upon another by means of his lies. (De 19:15-21) God’s view of malicious lying, as reflected in the Law, has not changed. Those desiring to gain his approval cannot engage in the practice of lying. (Ps 5:6; Pr 20:19; Col 3:9, 10; 1Ti 3:11; Re 21:8, 27; 22:15) They cannot be living a lie, claiming to love God while hating their brother. (1Jo 4:20, 21) For playing false to the holy spirit by lying, Ananias and his wife lost their lives.—Ac 5:1-11.
However, persons who are momentarily overreached in telling a lie do not automatically become guilty of an unforgivable sin. The case of Peter, in denying Jesus three times, illustrates that if a person is truly repentant, God will forgive him.—Mt 26:69-75.
While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." (Mt 7:6) That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm. (Mt 15:1-6; 21:23-27; Joh 7:3-10) Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, and Elisha in misdirecting or in withholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light.—Ge 12:10-19; chap 20; 26:1-10; Jos 2:1-6; Jas 2:25; 2Ki 6:11-23.
Jehovah God allows "an operation of error" to go to persons who prefer falsehood "that they may get to believing the lie" rather than the good news about Jesus Christ. (2Th 2:9-12) This principle is illustrated by what happened centuries earlier in the case of Israelite King Ahab. Lying prophets assured Ahab of success in war against Ramoth-gilead, while Jehovah’s prophet Micaiah foretold disaster. As revealed in vision to Micaiah, Jehovah allowed a spirit creature to become "a deceptive spirit" in the mouth of Ahab’s prophets. That is to say, this spirit creature exercised his power upon them so that they spoke, not truth, but what they themselves wanted to say and what Ahab wanted to hear from them. Though forewarned, Ahab preferred to be fooled by their lies and paid for it with his life.—1Ki 22:1-38; 2Ch 18.
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Deputy Dog
johnnyc
Some, if not all of you, were at one time dedicated JWs who fully supported the GB and WTBTS. So that means you probably defended the GB's actions to someone out in service. You obviously feel your current thinking is correct, but I wonder if you ever have the slightness fondness for the WTBTS for teaching you certain things about the bible?? Is there any appreciation for any of what you have been taught?
Not me! I've never been a JW. I've seen to many of the scars. Yes scars, (both mental and physical). From the acid burns put on the leg of preschoolers (by a quack doctor), to fool the school, because the WT forbade vaccinations. Families broken. Deaths caused by their blood issue. Shall I go on?
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orangefatcat
Farkel where did you obtain this information :
Fred Franz candidly admitted that he concocted Armageddon happening and the ancient prophets returning to earth at Beth Sarim by 1925 solely to get the drunken and declining J. Franklinstein Rutherford away from Brooklyn Headquarters where he couldn't cause the rest of the Society any more trouble.
thanks
Orangefatcat.
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johnnyc
Deputy Dog: So do you believe that the members of the GB actually meet and discuss what lie they are going to promote or cover-up? If you all believe the WTBTS is lying, then it must come down to a point of people there at Brooklyn meeting to decide how best to accomplish such. Even your prince of apostates, Raymond Franz, said the WTBTS (including the GB) are sincere in their efforts, but Franz uses a catch phrase to describe his opinion on what is happening at the GB level - "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." He claims they are unrealistic and myth based, but he does not accuse them of lying. Don't you think he would be one of the first whistle-blowers of the GB if they were having meetings to talk about how they can deceive their membership??? You all need to "get real" about what is, at the worst case, occurring at the GB. Mistakes and nothing more. Regardless of whether or not God uses them to channel information, the fact is they HONESTLY believe that he is. This tread was started to discuss if the GB errors, or is fraudulent. So far, NO ONE has presented proof of fraud. Admittedly, it is difficult to prove, but nothing less than information showing the GB knew one thing to be true, yet purposefully and intently sought to deceive others of an alternative reality. Something along the lines of a recording of one of their meetings, or personal memos indicating such. Otherwise, any claim that they are fraudulent is a conjecture or slanderous.
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shamus100
Hi Jonny,
They are god's prophet on earth. They have blatantley misled people with false prophecy.
If you want to believe them, then I encourage you to go back to them. By your being here and asking questions, you deserve to be disfellowshipped, end of story. As do I.
Many people have this fairy-tale way of thinking of what a typical Jehovah's witness goes through - study the bible, get baptized, understand that you will get DF'd if you break them. What about the born-ins that got baptized because of they're family? They were minors, and they never had a chance to really understand the cult. Now that they ask questions, they are immediately DF'd.
Some people call Jehovahs witnesses a cult. Many psychologists have another term for them - a high-control group. They resemble nothing of the congregations in 33ce.
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Farkel
orangefatcat,
The person who heard Freddie say that was quoted in Ed Gruss' The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society.
Here is a link to a summary of the book from Randy's site:
http://www.freeminds.org/sales/4presintro.htm
Farkel -
oompa
johnnyc: oompa: Your last example is in no way similar to what has happened at the WTBTS over certain dates. A more appropriate example may be: What if the British did not arrive when Paul Revere announced? Would you renounce him as a heretic - tar and feather him? Was he not an agent of the government, someone who should know? I want you to really try to place yourselves in the shoes of the GB, and imagine you thought the end of the world would occur in 1975. What do you do? You say that the WTBTS ruined many lives...? How? Jesus said "pick up your torture stake (aka cross) and follow me"? Whoever loses their life on his behalf, saves it. Also, what bad thing can happen if you are to suffer for Christ? Does not the promise Jesus said about providing all material substance needed apply? The problem with all these people who cry about their lives being ruined are not truly "throwing" their trust in God - they retain a worldly viewpoint of "material" possessions. God and Jesus made clear that you would lose everything for his name, and by doing so, you would gain everything later. Regardless of what you may think, there are a host of people who are still JW's who sold everything before 1975 - and who give District Convention experiences about how it was the best thing they ever did - even though they don't have a penny to their name. Who is following Christ - your friends who sit and apostatize over things lost in their lives - or the current JW giving everything of themselves (only thing left) to teach people about the bible and good news of God's kingdom...?
John...this is just weird...are you smokin wildwood weed?....nothing in your reply has anything to do with my post and the questions or issues i address...are you OK? maybe you should re-read my post and try to actually reply to it....and one thing about NEW LIGHT or rather CYA and always changing their teachings....can you show me a single example in the scriptures where god chose to reveal a falsehood as a truth only to change it later...to yet another falsehood....and who knows...change it later to what may be a truth?...search your ass off, but you want find any!...and dont do the oh they changed the circumcision rule...dude that was an old rule for jews...and the new christians said NO we don't need to abuse, torture, and maim out penises.....and did that rule change 20 years later?...hell no!....why the fluck would god reveal false shit in the first place if his "CHANNEL" has his spirit???....now please....don't go off on some drug infested tangent....just respond to what i posted!...........................oompa
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johnnyc
shamus100: Perhaps I do deserve to be DF'd for being here and discussing these things. I started this journey probably as many of you did (I am not saying all, so no need to debate me on this), as I was having a judicial committee against me for a sin that I committed. I think something goes through your mind at that point when someone accuses you of wrong, and you want to find "dirt" on them - so to speak. In all honesty, at first I was taken back by what I read on the internet about the WT - including Franz's book. But it was his book that also got me thinking back towards the WT. In his book, he talks about how none of the people (including himself) should have been DF'd or had judicial meetings since evidence was either lacking, or in his words, they were on a fishing expedition for apostates. The problem with all that, is that he clearly states in his book that he, and the other associates of his, had those contrary conversations and thoughts before any of that started. Then, to back everything up, he and the other DF'd members (Dunlap etc) immediately turned and attacked the WTBTS intensely - basically confirming they were who the GB thought they were. The only real point that Franz had, was perhaps the way it was all handled (taking his word at face value)...but how can you fault that when Franz did what he did afterwards.