Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus

by snowbird 328 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Jesus was a sailor

    When he walked upon the water

    And he spent a long time watching

    From his lonely wooden tower

    And when he knew for certain

    Only drowning men could see him

    He said "All men shall be sailors . . .

    . . . until the sea shall free them"

    But he himself was broken

    Long before the sky would open

    Forsaken . . . almost human

    He sank beneath your wisdom

    Like a stone.

    And you want to travel with him

    And you want to travel blind

    So you think maybe you'll trust him

    For he's touched your perfect body

    With his mind.

    - The gospel according to Cohen

  • juni
    juni

    I'm sorry to hear you've been suffering Sylvia, but happy to hear that you found the meds that work for you. That takes time and patience to find the right drug and dosage. I speak from experience. Take care of yourself and I wish you the best!

    Juni

  • juni
    juni

    I feel the "something deep inside of us" you mentioned Sylvia is our spiritual need which will continue to be fulfilled on a personal basis - without belonging to an organized religion. Religion and spirituality are two different issues I feel.

    The need for religion with its manmade proscribed set of rules and rituals will fall by the wayside completely in time I feel. It will have served its purpose. With knowledge one lets go of superstitions.

  • Essan
    Essan

    Hi Podo,

    Unfortunately, trying to accurately put yourself in the mindset of readers of the time is very difficult (or impossible) and ultimately pointless - because the only safe and legitimate way to interpret Scripture is by Scripture, not by what we may think other readers were thinking. What they were thinking is largely irrelevant and by the time we get to what we think they were thinking it's utterly pointless as a guide to accurately interpreting the Bible. What the writer meant is the issue, not what any reader may have thought they meant.

    I feel this is the fundamental error you are making, and it's the same error many JW's make on this issue.

    When you read a Scripture you seem to be reasoning "what does this make me think, or what might it have made someone else think? Well then, that must be what God wants to convey, otherwise why would he have said something which would make me think this?"

    This is literally "human reasoning".

    Thus He says "Son", and you think "I know about Sons because Sons is a human concept. Human Sons are separate beings from their Fathers. Therefore the "Son" must be separate from the "Father" because thats what humans think about human "Sons' and "Fathers", and why would God have made me think that by saying "Son" if he didn't want to make me think that"? So the "Son" must be separate from the "Father". Any human reader would reason that way, so it must be what God wants us to think"

    Do you see the inherent flaw in that kind of thinking? It's perhaps reasonable, in isolation, but it's not Scriptural. Actually, many interpretations can be reasonable but inaccurate. It's also arbitrarily applied (because it's human reasoning). For instance, it's apparently reasonable to think that as human sons are separate from their fathers, then the Biblical "Son" must be separate from the "Father". But this line of reason is not sound, because human sons also have penises, and so do their fathers. So according to the line of reasoning you used earlier to interpret Scripture, both the Biblical "Son" and the "Father" must also have penises.

    Sounds silly right? And that's why you cut off your line of reasoning before that point. But it's the same line of reason. And you decide where to stop and start it at the points you feel it's "silly" or "reasonable". That's human reasoning. It's arbitrary. And it yields vastly different results depending on how each person is choosing to apply it based on what they think and what they feel.

    But if "interpretations belong to God" and we consider the Scriptures to be God's word, then we are obliged to only interpret Scripture, by Scripture.

    As for Psalms 2, I'm going to have to put the ball back in your court. Having read it and knowing basically what Trinitarians believe and what else the Bible says about the Messiah and the "Son" I don't honestly understand what problem Psalms 2 present to the Trinity doctrine, so you are going to have to point it out to me. You direct me to it as if it the problem should be obvious, but it's not. It may be obvious according to human reasoning, but according to the entire context of the Bible, the other things said about the Messiah, the other things said about the "Son", the reams of Scriptures applied exclusively to Jehovah which are then explicitly applied to The "Son" in the NT - according to all that and bearing all that in mind, there is no problem I see.

    So break it down for me, if you don't mind?

  • designs
    designs

    PSacremento-

    The more Orthodox do hold views of a literal Messiah coming while some moderates may see a Messianic age or the principals of God and Gan Eden coming to fruition either literally or just in improved and ever evolving conditions here on earth that humans make happen. To suggest their view is vacant while the christian view is valid to me is hubris based on pith.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    PSacremento-
    The more Orthodox do hold views of a literal Messiah coming while some moderates may see a Messianic age or the principals of God and Gan Eden coming to fruition either literally or just in improved and ever evolving conditions here on earth that humans make happen. To suggest their view is vacant while the christian view is valid to me is hubris based on pith.

    As a chritian of course I view their view as incorrect but I certaibly didn't mean to imply it was "vacant", I apologise.

    I meant to say that just because they had THAt view, doesn't mean they were right.

    And what do you mean "based on pith" ?

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Juni, I agree that religion and spirituality are different.

    I'm sorry I didn't make that clear on yesterday.

    I, too, look forward to the day when religion will be obsolete.

    However, I firmly believe that worshipping will always be with us.

    Only thing is, we will all be worshipping the One who is worthy.

    Peace and blessings, my kindhearted friend.

    Syl

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I think that we soemtimes confuse our issues with ORGANIZED religion with religion proper.

    Remember, religion is, quite simply:

    a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

    : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Podo, dear heart, I think I see your problem.

    You believe Jehovah refers to the Father only?

    Please, I beseech you, read Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58, which are cross-referenced in most Bibles.

    http://bible.cc/exodus/3-14.htm

    http://bible.cc/john/8-58.htm

    Blessings.

    Syl

  • Podobear

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