Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus

by snowbird 328 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Podobear
    Podobear

    @Essan: I am disappointed in your rhetoric. I have no desire to enter into melodrama... just to understand the point of view of others.

    Psalm 2, reads absolutely perfectly to me... Almighty God and his begotten Son, I am assuming is Jesus.

    This thread Jesus is Jehovah/Jehovah is Jesus. NOT according to the Psalmist. Again, please, end 45 years of trying to understand Trinitarian circular argument. How is a Trinitarian to explain Psalm 2, please? I am the pupil here.

    @Snowbird: I have read Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. I beseech you to read John 8:57 to put the following verse into context and then read up on the translation of the verse. You will be enlightened. Jehovah is not Jesus, honey....

    but, Jesus is the Son of God, our appointed Saviour, begotten of his Father... Psalm 2 et al

    P.S Hugs to you and all happiness with Mr S.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    http://bible.cc/john/8-57.htm

    The commentaries on this verse are eye-opening.

    I'm not Trinitarian, but the WT has done a bang-up job of perverting the actual Trinity doctrine.

    I agree that Jesus of Nazareth was begotten of the Father - as a human.

    Otherwise, He would be sinful, not qualified to be the Savior.

    However, I firmly believe that before His begettal as a human, He existed eternally as YHWH, or if you prefer, Jehovah.

    Thank you for those good wishes, Podo, my brother.

    Love and peace back to you.

    Syl

  • Essan
    Essan

    Podo,

    imagining you understand the points of view of others has no relevance to interpreting Scripture, which is what this thread is about.

    Psalms 2 reads perfectly to me too, yet I have a very different view of it, obviously. If you are presenting it somehow as an obstacle to the Trinity then you will have to explain how it supposedly obstructs the Trinity to me first, seeing as I don't see how it does. That is your responsibility because it was your request. You at least need to make your own arguments clearly.

    Your claim regarding "Jesus is Jehovah": "NOT according to the Psalmist" is flawed on 2 counts.

    1. No one said this was a proof text for that notion, as far as I'm aware. If you want to use it as a proof text against the notion, then you need to make your argument instead of imagining your argument is obvious, when it's not. (probably because you mistake your interpretations for reality, for fact, and imagine everyone else must see what you see).

    2. You can only rightly interpret Psalms 2 by the Scriptures, the entire context of the Bible, and especially all the other passages dealing with the Messiah and "The Son". This you are not doing, but are taking it in isolation and allowing human reasoning - "Psalm 2 reads perfectly clearly to me" - to direct it's interpretation. This leaves you at odds with many other Scriptures, when the aim is to harmonize them all, being forced to the position that such an attempt to harmonize leads you, even if doing so leads you to conclusion you did not expect and may not even welcome.

  • Podobear
  • designs
    designs

    PSacremento-

    I used Pith as it is used as a Botany term and also in Literature to mean a Core with a soft substance. Will Durant describes Jesus as such an iconic figure in Western thought that he permeates all strata of our culture, yet the hardcore provable facts are ellusive about him. Did he really exist, did he rise from the grave and go to heaven, was he God or some god-like creature are all arguments of Pith.

    This discussion of whether Jesus was Jehovah of the OT is a good example of how hard it is to pin anything down about this figure from the 1st century. Here we have a Bible that is not definitive on the issue and God the Holy Spirit hasn't helped in settleing the issue, you have half the christian world thinking yes Jesus is Jehovah and the other hald thinking no he isn't.

    Coupled with the teachings that you have to know this figure to get eternal life or suffer eternal death or worse its very odd to see the most basic concept left to interpretation.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    Snowbird: Are you binatarian (few hold this view) or modalist? I assume you deny the Deity/personality of the Holy Spirit, but say the Father and Son are YHWH. Is the Father the Son (modalism) or personally distinct (bi or tri)? You could also be Mormon/polytheistic with Father=Elohim and Jesus=Jehovah. Perhaps you are like Herbert W. Armstrong and his family of gods concept (the WWCOG is now trinitarian)? If there is only one true God, YHWH, and Jesus is this God, where does Father/Spirit fit in with your view? Jesus=Jehovah is the key truth unless it is the Mormon concept of evolving man-gods.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Godrulz, I dislike labels.

    I'm neither binitarian nor modalist.

    I believe both the Father and the One who became the Son are YHWH, God, Creator - "Let US make man ..."

    I'm still undecided on the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

    Syl

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Podobear: How possibly can Jesus be Jehovah?

    Mainstream Chrtistianity does not teach that the created humanity of Jesus, the man of the God-man equation of the hypostatic union, is Jehovah. Mainstream Christianity - the overwhelming majority of Catholic and Protestant churches - teaches that: "The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 922). If they did teach this, then you would have a point, but they do not. Furthermore, anyone who teaches that the Father became the suffering Jesus on the cross is guilty of the heresy of patripassianism, condemed by the church centuries ago. The God of the God-man is not the man, and the man is not the God. However, this does not mean that there is a duality of persons in Christ. Jesus was/is a divine person who assumed a human nature.

    In Christ existed “two natures in one person [prosopon] or acting subject [hypostasis] (Encyclopedia of Religion, 20). “This personal unity left the divine and human natures quite in tact and in no way confused or intermingled them with each other” (ibid.). Both natures were unaltered and undiminished (Catholic Encyclopedia, 932). Christ not only had two wills “but also two intellects,” one divine, the other human (ibid., 924).

    “If the pivotal assertion of the New Testament, “The Word was made flesh” (Jn 1.14), means anything, it signifies that two, the divine and the human, became somehow uniquely one in Jesus of Nazareth; that in Him was achieved a union, elsewhere unparalleled of God with man” (ibid., 918).

    The Church believes that Jesus Christ is true God, Son of God made man, the Second person of the Trinity, who took unto Himself a human nature and so exists not only in the divine but also in a human nature: one divine Person in two natures. The man who in His earthly life was known as Jesus of Nazareth was not a human person made one, as Nestorius said, in a unique way of moral unity, with the Person of the Son of God. He was God, Son of the Father, made man for men’s salvation. (ibid., 932)

    “His human nature, perfect and complete, was not a human person distinct from the Divine person of the Word … it was the human nature of a Divine Person. This point of our faith enwraps the humanity of Christ in full mystery. … His human life included true human knowledge and a human will distinct from the divine will” (ibid., 936).

    Our faith in Christ, the God-man, supposes that his humanity is not a human person (the mystery). For if it were, and if there were a duality of persons in Christ, then the Divine Person would not really be man but only united with a man; Christ would not be what our faith says he is.” (ibid., 937)

    “Christ is one Person, that of the Logos, in two complete and integral natures” (Council of Chalcedon in 451) (ibid., 921), but “U]nion of the human nature with the divine self in no way diminishes the human nature” (Constantinople III in 681) (ibid.,). “[T]he human nature of Christ had its foundation in the divine self, the Second person of the Blessed Trinity,” (794 AD, A synod at Frankfurt) (ibid.).

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#6

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    I think it's important to repost what Narkissos said on this thread a couple of years ago.

    Narkissos: So the initial question must be questioned: which 'Jehovah' are we talking about? And from this standpoint it is by no means indifferent that the deity to whom Jesus is identified (or related) in the NT texts is NEVER "Yhwh" (let alone 'Jehovah') but, most often (and rather consistently in Paul), "(the) Lord". Of course the Greek kurios is originally a substitute for the Hebrew Yhwh but the change in wording doesn't leave the "referent" unchanged. Iow, we cannot simply retrovert kurios into Yahweh (let alone Jehovah) and assume that "Jesus is Lord" is semantically equivalent to "Jesus is Yahweh" (even though "Lord" originally stood for Yhwh). The kurios concept has evolved in the meantime, and the history of ideas and beliefs doesn't work backwards. (Side comment: we cannot expect the NT authors, including Paul, who most likely quote OT scriptures from memory or testimonia rather than from complete "books", to have such a clear idea of the initial context and meaning of their quotations as we can very easily get.)

    In sum, I believe it is a huge methodological mistake to skip the "Lord" step (and the conceptual changes it entails) in the question. "Jesus is Lord" doesn't mean that Jesus "is" the Yahweh of Deutero-Isaiah (in its original context) anymore than he is the son of El, the husband of Asherah, or the henotheistic deity of Josiah. Belief systems change, and "Yahweh" simply doesn't belong to the vast majority of "Christian" belief systems.

    I would add, as I stated above, that the saying "Jesus is Jehovah" would amount to the heresy of patripassianism. "Jesus is God" takes it down a notch, but could also be seen as patripassianism if the import of that phrase in the trinitarian sense is not understood or explained.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Podobear: I simply believe that if Jesus was Almighty God himself.... he and the Bible writers would have said so!

    No offense intended, but I honestly believe you don't care what the Bible says and don't bother to read it, except for a couple of verses that seem confusing to you; not to mention some Watchtower literature that comfortably obscures the issues for you. You're simply throwing rocks and throwing up your hands and claiming that your inability to understand these issues is somehow a defense, an argument of some kind. The New Testament is full of scripture proving Jesus was, and is, the God-Man. If you disagree, then articulate your disagreement with respect to each verse. Don't just say, "I don't believe that stuff." You'll never arrive at the truth thinking, or not thinking, like that. These links are a good place to start:

    21) Phillip said to Jesus: Show us the Father - (John 14:8-10)

    22) Jesus Christ resurrected Himself - (John 2:19 - 22)

    23) The heavenly resurrected Jesus is identified as Almighty God and the “First and the Last” because there can be only one “First and Last” and one “Alpha and Omega” and Jesus assumed both titles.

    24) The Father and I are one - (John 10:27-30)

    25) There is only one Savior who grants eternal salvation, and both the divine Person of Christ and God are that Savior.

    26) Jesus is “master” and absolute ruler - (Despotes); a separate Christ and a separate God cannot both exercise this role - (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)

    27) The eternal Christ was not created - (Isaiah 9:6)

    28) “Let us make man in our image” was not directed to Jesus the created master craftsman working beside the Creator, but was self-communication within the triune God - (Genesis 1:26)

    29) The fullness of the Godhead dwells inseparably in Jesus - (Colossians 2:9); He is the very imprint of God’s being - (Hebrews 1:3)

    30) Prior to His incarnation Christ subsisted in the form (morphe) of God - (Philippians 2:6)

    31) The Word, Christ, was the firstborn of all creation, but not in the sense of being created - (Colossians 1:15)

    32) The Word was “begotten,” but not made, not created - (John 1:14)

    33) The Messiah of the Old Testament stems from eternity - (Micah 5:2; Proverbs 8:22)

    34) The Almighty says of Jesus “Your throne, Oh God, is forever and ever” - (Hebrews 1:8, 9)

    35) Thomas called the resurrected Jesus “My Lord and my God” - (John 20:26 - 29)

    36) Jesus refers to Himself as the “I AM,” which is God’s own self-designation - (John 8:58)

    37) And the Word was God - (John 1:1)

    38) The Holy Spirit is the divine third Person of the Holy Trinity.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit