For the Atheists... I Need some Answers....

AllTimeJeff

Hello! I proudly admit at the start of this that I am very non supportive of organized religion, the bible, worshipping Jesus and the like. I have frequently argued against theistic themes, joining atheists in their arguements. I view most religion as a cynical system of power for their religious leaders.

Yet I am not an atheist. I am agnostic. And I frequently call myself "spiritually minded". A brief explanation on this....

By saying I am spiritually minded, I am saying that I believe that many of the ethical teachings, and theories, stripped of their organized religion subtext, have real merit. I feel zero need to worship anything. But I don't rule out "higher powers" exisiting. I am not preocupied with this. As some have noted, I am very much an existentialist. But I have observed that in many areas of life, quality of life actually improves with a grounding caused by an embrace of "spirituality".

Substance abusers for example can join AA or other 12 step programs. Who would argue, even if you are dead set against god and religion, that it is better to believe in a superstitious god then to continue with a deadly addiction?

In light of my above comments, I would like to start a respectful conversation with anyone, but especially atheists, as to the benefits of ruling out with certainty the existence of a higher power or god. (I know not all atheists do this, but some do, as some heated debates on this board in the past have revealed....)

I especially want to talk about the quality of life aspect of this. I have long maintained in my view that "spirituality" must be linked to quality of life, in that it can/should give meaning and purpose in life. No matter where one sides on the atheist/theist debate, we all want to matter, to have a purpose in life, and especially, peace of mind.

Please note that this is in no way a vague or sneaky attempt to argue for the existence of god or the value of religion (organized or otherwise) per se. I would like this discussion to basically be about the philosophies associated with atheism. Since atheism merely is a conclusion one draws that god doesn't exist as he is taught, what do atheists do to fill the yearning we all have for meaning and purpose in life?

Mickey mouse

Sounds like you're in the same place as me.

Sorry, that doesn't make for much of a discussion does it?

drwtsn32

Hi Jeff,

First, you should be aware that atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. I understand the terms as being labels for two different dimensions of belief.

Look at it this way:

Theists - belief in god
Atheists - lack belief in god

Agnostic - claim no knowledge of god
Gnostic - claim specific knowledge of god

I believe most atheists are actually agnostic atheists. That is, they do not believe they have disproven god; they don't rule out the possibility of one existing. Instead they just lack a belief in god because currently there is no indication that one exists or that we can know it. These types of atheists are also called "weak atheists."

There are some who are "strong atheists," that is "gnostic atheists." Personally I believe this position is faulty. There is no way to prove there is no god; no way to know that there is no supreme being. I don't know anyone who falls into this category, and I know a lot of atheists. :)

Forgive me if this is all stuff you've already thought about.

Anyway, it sounds like what you call "spirituality" I would call "morality." There are certainly many moral ideals in religion that are good. There's no reason we can't have those morals without religion. The difference is I believe the morals are derived from logic, common sense, and empathy, rather than the will and statement of some magical being. Such morality is certainly linked to quality of life.

As far as purpose of life goes, I actually have a much stronger appreciation now than I did as a theist. Many Christians are taught that this life is meaningless in the big picture of things. Now I view this life as very important, and want to make the best of it.

hamilcarr

I've found meaning and purpose in the natural world. God's non-existence has been very liberating to me.

AllTimeJeff

First, you should be aware that atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. I understand the terms as being labels for two different dimensions of belief.

I agree, and frankly, labels both help and hurt discussions like this. Labels and a general understanding of groups are needed for discussion, but it can reach a saturation point. Thats where each persons views become paramount. It has been a real eye opener for me to really understand that within all religions and groups, JW's included, that there has never been, nor will ever be, uniform agreement.

Getting over the idea of trying to find a group of people that agrees on everything was one of the very first things I assimilated as an ex JW.

One of my motivations for discussing this is that when I left, I call that first few months for me that of "angry atheism". It was a default position and a reaction, but never was it a carefully considered decision.

Since that time, my view is that for me, I must treat the whole person. I can't deny that self defined "spiritual" side, which I frequently starved at first.

That isn't to say that I think organized religion is the answer. I can happily say that my conclusion is that it isn't, and that doesn't come from a place of disillusionment or anger within me.

But I have to look at the quality of life associated with understanding ones meaning and purpose. Its fascinating, and it helps!

rebel8

When I left the jws I vowed to devote myself to truth, no matter how much I didn't want to believe it.

The benefit of atheism is the mental freedom that comes with rejecting falsehoods and fairy tales, being so devoted to truth that you prefer believing something is unknown rather than making up the answers yourself.

No longer are you required to constantly figure out how to please Santa Claus or what he wants of you. This immense amount of energy and time can be devoted to philanthropy and enjoying the "gift" of life. If God someday reveals himself or his will, and he's worth worshipping, he'll be happy to know you've made good use of this wonderful gift rather than spending all day mentally flogging yourself for being a sinner and reading tea leaves to ascertain what god wants of you next.

drwtsn32

I agree, and frankly, labels both help and hurt discussions like this.

Couldn't agree with you more! Different people hear "atheist" and think different things. When I tell people I'm an atheist, sometimes I tell them I'm not that "angry" type that believes you can disprove god, but rather I just lack any belief in one.

But I have to look at the quality of life associated with understanding ones meaning and purpose.

We can assign our own meaning and purpose to life. For me it's definitely going to revolve around my son... doing things that I find fulfilling... trying to better the world and humanity... etc.

slimboyfat

I've found meaning and purpose in the natural world. God's non-existence has been very liberating to me.

What meaning did you find? One that was there already or one you made yourself?

Maybe we mean different things by "meaning" though. I don't see any "meaning" out there.

On the contrary I find meaninglessness and purposelessness in the world all around, but I somehow still manage to find enjoyment, and express feeling.

On balance I would say believing the world made sense (when I believed in Jehovah) was more comfortable, but I can't choose what I believe. I just have to deal with what I find myself believing.

darth frosty

I classify myself as a spiritual atheist. While I do not believe in God...especially the way he is represented in the Big 3 religions.

I call myself spiritual becuase I recognize that man with his heightened senses and self awareness, naturally gives way to a unique spirituality. While I do not believe in God I know that our bi-cameral minds creates a unique duality that seperates us from other living creatures.

We have the ability to question our existance and beginnings. While most life forms only look to survive and reproduce we as humans have the added yearning to search for answers to question's. Some of these questions have proved to be un-answerable and manking has turned to stories mythology and legends to fill the void.

Nathan Natas

I joked with a friend a while back that I was a "non-practicing" atheist. I had enough in-your-face fanaticism when I was a Dub, I don't need to engage with any urgency in a " life-saving work" to let people know that soon, without any warning, nothing is going to happen.

ATJ said,

By saying I am spiritually minded, I am saying that I believe that many of the ethical teachings, and theories, stripped of their organized religion subtext, have real merit. I feel zero need to worship anything. But I don't rule out "higher powers" existing.

What is the difference between believing in invisible sky people as opposed to a set of atheistic rational ethical standards?

The difference is that the atheist have done away with the illogic of invisible people.

Just because some theists like to promote the idea that godless atheists are running around sans-ethics eating babies and having sex with trees doesn't mean it's true. Besides, I really loved that tree.

I think Ayn Rand (Alice Rosenbaum to me) got off to a good start with her philosophy of Objectivism, and she didn't fail it's standards any more than most religious people fail to meet their alleged standards. She showed us that godless or not, we are still mere puny human carbon units.

For the Atheists... I Need some Answers....

Share this