Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  DaCheech

  so what!

  catholics worship a cross idol, and witlesses worship the watchtower symbol/idol.
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  tenyearsafter

  Reniaa...

  We will have to agree to disagree. Again, I am not arguing the rightness or wrongness of a stake versus a cross. As I said earlier, I don't know which it was. What I have trouble with is that neither you or the WT know the correct answer either. Despite this, you are insistent that you are correct in your interpretation and everyone else is wrong. To use a red herring argument about idol worship and wearing weapons around your neck are really not relevant.

  By the way, unless the distance to Golgotha from the location of Jesus' scourging is less than 50 feet or so, it is unlikely that a caber (stauros) could be carried by a weakened man. The average caber toss is not much further than the actual length of the caber itself.
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  babel on

  "Again, I am not arguing the rightness or wrongness of a stake versus a cross. As I said earlier, I don't know which it was. What I have trouble with is that neither you or the WT know the correct answer either" tenyearsafter

  well said ten years. reniaa reminds me of why I left the watchtowercheers
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  drwtsn32

  I have in 38 years in and out of Jw's never seen anyone wear wt Jewelry

  I have. My ex-father-in-law used to wear a tie pin/clip that was the WT logo.
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  Colton

  Again, if Jesus were crucified on a pole with his arms above his head - he would have died in 15 minutes.
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  besty

  Hi earnest thankyou for the hands up

  Hands up - Hands out?

  On a thread about cross v stake?

  Reniaa your ability to distort the English language normally frustrates me, but in this case your destruction of the 'heads up' metaphor - priceless.

  <of course I'm not 100% sure you meant to say 'heads up' - perhaps you really meant 'show of hands' as in an approving vote of support - we may never know what you meant>
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  Colton

  Interesting read ...

  by Dr. Andreas Lambrianides
  General Surgeon
  Brisbane, Australia
  
  Crucifixion was one of the most painful, cruel, and most humiliating forms of punishment ever devised by man. The Jewish historian Josephus describes it as “the most wretched of deaths”, and Seneca argues that suicide is preferable to the cruel fate of being put on the cross. Roman citizens were exempt from crucifixion except in cases of treason. Cicero called it “crudelissimum taeterrimumque supplicium” - a most cruel and disgusting punishment and he further suggested that the very word, cross, should be far removed not only from the person of a Roman citizen, but also from his thoughts, his eyes and ears, and used only in slaves, “Extremum summumque suplicium”-extreme and ultimate punishment of slaves If the Romans regarded crucifixion with horror so did the Jews. They made no distinction between tree and cross. “Anyone who is hung on a tree is under Gods curse.” Deut.21:23 hey could not bring themselves to believe that the Messiah would die under a curse.
  
  Crucifixion was invented and used by the Persians as far back as 400BC. Alexander the great brought the practice back to Egypt and Carthage, where the Romans learnt about it and developed a high degree of skill and efficiency in its use, by devising various ways in order to achieve maximal deterrent and spectacle effect. Cicero comments on crucifixion and several innovations modifications and variations. This most wretched form of death became widespread across the Roman Empire and continued until the 4th century AD when the practice was discontinued by the emperor Constantine. Crucifixion was uncommon in Jewish culture and except for a few instances, the victim was usually stoned to death first and then hung on the cross according to, “And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree”: Deut 21:22
  
  One exception to this was the case of 800 Pharisees who were crucified first rather than being stoned to death, in 267 BC.
  
  The cross was made of an upright post called, stipes and a horizontal bar called patibulum. Several variations were in existence and crucifixion practices often varied in a given region in accordance with the preferences of the executioners. If the patibulum was attached two to three feet below the top of the stipes, then the cross was called the “low tau” as compared to the “high tau” where the patibulum was attached to the top of the stipes. Actual trees still in the ground whether dead or alive were also used with the branches serving as the crossbar.
  
  An additional block called the suppendaneum was used for the transfixion of the feet in later times. The titulus or small sign, stating the victim’s crime, was usually nailed to the cross above the victim’s head. The final part of the cross was the sedulum a horizontal wooden block serving as a crude seat, and it was attached midway down the stipes. The weight of the entire cross was probably over 300 pounds (136 kg) while that of the patibulum ranged between 75 and 125 pounds(34-57kg) It is highly likely that only the patibulum was carried by the victim and this was placed across the nape of the victim’s neck and balanced on both shoulders.
  
  During crucifixion the arms were outstretched along the patibulum and tied or nailed to the crossbar, but the Romans preferred nailing. The nails were made of iron and were five to seven inches in length, with a square ***** three eights of an inch across. Without much historical or biblical proof, Christians have imagined Christ carrying the entire cross, however, the upright post or stipes was generally fixed permanently to the ground at the place of crucifixion, and the condemned person was forced to carry the patibulum only, which was much lighter (125 pounds) as compared to the weight of the whole cross (300 pounds).
  
  In most paintings the nails are shown to be driven through the palm of the hand which however historical Roman accounts dispute. The nails were in fact driven between the small bones of the hand (carpal bones) and the bones at the end of the forearm (radius and ulna), which make up the wrist joint. A nail through the palm would not support the weight of the human body and therefore would tear, and most importantly placed through the palm would have resulted in fracturing one or more of the carpal bones, without fulfilling the scriptures:
  
  “I can count all my bones, they look and stare upon me”. Ps. 22: 17 and,
  
  “ He keepeth all His bones, not one of them is broken” Ps. 34: 20
  
  Anatomically the wrists are considered part of the hand. The placement of the nail through the wrist joint had two effects. Firstly it ensured that the victim indeed hang on the cross until death and secondly, there was a very good chance of damage to the medial nerve as it passed beneath the flexor retinaculum, across the wrist joint to supply the hand. The effects of severing the nerve would be immediate loss of conductivity affecting motor, sensory and autonomic functions. Severing the nerve would also be followed immediately by severe burning pain in the distribution of the nerve, which is called causalgia. After both arms were nailed to the patibulum the victim and the crossbar together, were lifted onto the stipes. The feet were then nailed to the cross.
  
  They could be fixed to the sides of the stipes or to a footrest, however they were usually nailed to the front, and in order to make this possible, a degree of knee flexion was required.
  
  Survival times depended on a number of factors such as the age and general condition of the victim and the way he was crucified, such as whether the hands were nailed above the victims head or not. Eye witness accounts by Jewish prisoners of war in concentration camps reported that when prisoners where suspended from beams by their hands, expired within a few minutes if their feet where weighed, and significantly later, if the feet where not weighed, as the victim was able to raise himself in order to breath.When the Romans wanted to expedite death they would simply break the legs of the victim, with an iron club, fracturing the tibia and fibula, which caused the victim to suffocate within minutes, as he was no longer able to push himself up in order to exhale.
• 

  OUTLAW

  Reniaa................I am on a debate forum..It`s nice to know..You know,where you are..LOL!!................................if all you can do is cast espersions..Do you mean aspersons?..Your spelling is abysmal..When you spell "Stake",are you really trying to spell"Cross"?..LOL!! ...........................on me in your posts..I tell you the truth..Do you know the definition of asperson?..We already know you can`t spell Asperson..LOL!!................................. then your credibility with me is shot..That`s horrible!!..I sit up nights worrying about my credibility with you..How will I ever sleep tonight?..LOL!! ....................................I have in 38 years in and out of Jw's..One day your a Jehovah`s Witness,the next day your not..Then your are again,then your not..Yes,we all know your confused..LOL!! ...................................never seen anyone wear wtjewelery..Jehovah`s Witness`s must wear WBT$ Jewelery on the day`s your not a Jehovah`s Witness..LOL!!,....................................... I've certainly seen links on here to people selling ..Do you know why WBT$ jewelery has been advertised for years?..Because JW`s have been buying it for years..They just don`t wear it on the day`s your a Jehovah`s Witness..LOL!!...........................................it but never anyone actually foolish enough to wear it...The Advertisements don`t show pictures of the people who buy the WBT$ Jewelery..LOL!!................................... and if I were one of the wt scourers on this board I could probs find one discouraging it as well :S..That is an extremely incoherent sentence.I have no idea what that means..................... which I have a vague memory of from the past reading about it...If you can`t write a coherent thought,it`s no doubt your memory is vague............................................................................................................................................................Reniaa..Do you know why WBT$ Jewelery is for sale?..It`s for sale,because people by it...................Who buy`s WBT$ Jewelery?.....Catholic`s?..Jew`s?..Leprechaun`s?..LOL!!........Jehovah`s Witness`s buy WBT$ Jewelery!!......If the WBT$ was against the sale of WBT$ Jewelery,they could stop the infrigement of thier logo in a heartbeat..But they don`t!!..........The WBT$ has obviously given WBT$ Jewelery Thier Blessing!!.................Christians wear a Cross..Jehovah`s Witness`s wear a Watchtower logo..LOL!!..................The Cross reminds Christians of the Sacrifce Jesus made.................The Watchtower Logo reminds Jehovah`s Witness`s they are not doing enough for the WBT$..LOL!!..................If wearing a Cross is Idolatry..Then Wearing a Watchtower Logo is also Idolatry......And..The WBT$ allows It!!...............................................................OUTLAW
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  Leolaia

  the change to cross happenned same time as the romans started to greatly influence christian doctrine so how much people using cross as actual image in their churches is connected to this i'm not sure any research offered would be appreciated. lol chicken and egg situation. Did cross word start first and romans christians took advantage and placed it in their churches or did Romans cross usage influence changing the wording?

  What "change in wording"? Stauros and crux were terms that referred to a particularly vile piece of execution technology used by the Romans, which since the second century BC included a patibulum. The stauros was so commonly cruciform in shape that one could readily evoke this shape in the first and second centuries AD by simply referring to those executed on a stauros or crux. So what chicken and egg situation are you talking about? The Watchtower teaching that the stauros and crux only referred to simple stakes until Constantine's time is false.

  BTW, pagan Romans did not use the stauros in worship. That would have been altogether disgusting and ridiculous to them.
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  ex-nj-jw

  My brothers wear watchtower tie pins and cuff links. I think it looks stupid but they don't, I guess JW's are idol worshiper too huh Renaii?

  nj